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Re: We’re Asking the Wrong Ques About Police Shootings

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Message 21 of 39

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

Thank you for indicating you have no intention on discussing the actual topic but prefer to post distortions (LIES) about what others post.  Not interested in your intellectually dishonesty.


Thank you for backing out while admitting that you had nothing to offer but insults.

 

CIT was a valuable discussion point but instead you opted, for some unknown reason, to go and attack Christians.

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Re: We’re Asking the Wrong Ques About Police Shootings

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Message 22 of 39

@Olderscout66 wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@Olderscout66 wrote:

Before assessing the MORALITY of shootings by police, let's take a deep breath and consider what WE have done to the daily job of a police officer in America.

 

1. We armed the bad guys with MUCH more firepower and body armor than the cop on the beat is likely to have

 

2. To help pay for Reagan's taxscam, we closed virtually all the Government supported mental health custodial facilities

 

3. We killed revenue sharing that provided a huge amount of support for State and local law enforcement,

 

4. We allowed MILLIONS of good paying jobs to be taken from Americans and given to commie slaves

 

5. We have the most absurd drug laws on the planet,

Your point is well taken, but I disagree with your "count of items".  Here's what I mean based on your numbering of your points:

 

1.  I agree.  But rarely does one hear of a suspect wearing body armor.  Many shootings are related to domestic violence or mental health issues (like you pointed out) and these folks aren't usually walking around looking like Robocop.  Your point about guns is well taken.  However, it sounds as if, and I could be wrong here but it's an impression, sometimes it sounds cops are being paranoid vs. very cautious.  The Yanez/Castille case sounds like one of these cases.  Would a criminal tell a cop he has a gun and that he's licensed, and then try to pull the gun on a cop?  Highly unlikely...paranoia vs. caution.

 

2.  Agreed.  That's why the article included here is pertinent.  To NerdyMom's point, in many calls, an EMT should be dispatched as well.

 

3.  I believe almost everyone agree's there should be more police, and better trained.

 

4.  Jobs are indeed a factor, but IMO, that may be increasing some crime, but not sure it's causing many more police shootings.  When cops are shooting people "armed with a stick or a rock" as has been illustrated in the databases, that's not good police work....police have time and numbers on their side.  Police shooting into fleeing cars?  DUMB!  Police shooting fleeing suspects that aren't armed and shooting at them in the back?  DUMB!  We've seen video's of all these situations.  Here in my small town, as posted earlier, a cop shot two, one was a supposed hostage, when the two were surrounded by at least a dozen cops.  The two were armed with one small knife.....there was no attempt to taze the one with the knife or diffuse whatever was going on.  There was no reason to shoot and kill either of them.  And it cost the City millions.

 

5.  Agreed again, somewhat.  **bleep**, I agreed with you more than I expected. But as part of your #2, we need more drug treatment programs.

 

And lastly, I don't think anyone is getting medieval on the police, a bit of an exaggeration, maybe for effect.  But we have to acknowledge we can do better, in area's you suggested as well and treat all humans with respect, just like the respect Castile showed Yanez last July....but it STILL got him killed.  Let's not confuse what we could do better and make improvements with and "getting medieval"...

 

Good post, Scout!


1. The North Hollywood bankrobbery when the perps had to be shot in the head at close range because of their heavy "HOMEMADE" body armor leaps to mind when discussing the "Robo-antiCops", as does the fact they were using armor piercing rounds. Letting civilians possess endless quantities of military hardware is insane.  That's one example...an exception to the rule. It would be difficult to find many more examples.  There have been 447 police killings this year aleary.  I doubt you'd find 1 where this is an issue.

 

2. Good point, but there's not enough revenue to provide enough EMTs either.  Yep, if they're going to show up anyway after the cop shoots them, might as well get them there 10 minutes earlier.

 

3. Too true, but the "Government IS the problem" mindset of GOPers keeps that from happening.  Agreed.

 

4. When crime increases because a man cannot find a decent job, so does the number of perps who are well armed because they're not just out looking for grocery money, they're looking for a fight.  Agreed.  Jobs provide more than just money.

 

5. What we need is DECRIMINALIZATION of drugs. Portugal's experience needs to become ours - Nixon's War on Drugs Blacks and Hippies Use is a much more devistating failure than Prohibition every was. Couldn't agree more.

 

Glad to see we're in basic agreement - thanks for the thoughtful comments.  Ditto, Mate!


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Message 23 of 39

Olderscout66 wrote:

More training will do nothing, so long as the streets provide a "counter-education".

 

I respectfully disagree.  More training and teach cops that when a person is carrying a knife, time is on the cops side.  Wait for assistance, surround the person, taze them or other effective method to disarm the individual.  They have every right to be treated humanly and not shot dead like a rabid animal.  This includes many other so called weapons like scissors, rocks, sticks a car, etc.

 

More police will do something.  I agree.  It will help with the above.

 

A return to an America where (like it said in the song) "every kid had a pretty good shot, to get as far as his old man got" and removing the military grade weapons from civilian hands will make a solution possible.  I agree AGAIN....such an agreeable poster....  Smiley Wink

 


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Re: We’re Asking the Wrong Ques About Police Shootings

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Message 24 of 39

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@afisher wrote:

  I am currently working on a Free Speech project.   One of my assignments was to review the local  Police Union Contract.    That then expanded to reading Police Union contracts from around the nation.     Few mention Crisis Intervention Training or re-training.

 

   That should be added to all Police Department training and yes citizens should / could be involved by both attending and speaking to this issue so that local and State legislators start hearing that citizens are demanding CIT training and working with National Alliance on Mental Health.  


Thank you for your efforts in this area, afisher.

 

It appears that some believe if someone is in crises, it's best just to shoot them.  And many of these pathetic folks call themselves "Christians"....quite the oxy***ron.

 

We CAN do better....


How do you associate the need for CIT training with an attack on Christians??? It's not an attack on Christians, "rk", it's an attack on CINO's (Christians in name only).  Certainly you understand the difference....don't you?  got it - it is an attack on people you disagree with and you use their religion as a vehicle for the attack. Actually, you don't "got it".  I don't have much respect for hypocrits, whether they're Libs, Cons or Christians that hide behind the label and actually behave counter to the teachings.  Maybe you embrace these folks, but I don't.  Someday I expect you might "get it", but your posts are far from it.  I must have missed you continuing attacks on such libs - but I have seen them on Christians. I agree that it is a valuable tool for police departments but for civil reasons, not Christianity. Really?  First, I agree it's a valuable tool and it's nice to see you believe that as well.  But, aren't Christians supposed to be "civil"?  Can't the reasons be "both" Again an attack on Christians. Why no just stick with the positive aspects of CIT Training. You must have a real "thing" for Christians. Because you made such a big deal of "Christians".  Wanna dance together on something we agree on?  No thank you. Actually, it was your attacks on Christians that I made the "big deal" about, not Christians. Remember, we are supposed to separate Church and State. So, you can't expect a City to install CIT training for the police officers for "Christian reasons". No one suggested such, so why create ANOTHER straw argument? I believe introducing religion into a discussion on police training is the real straw man I bet you do, but most can see I didn't....It was a reference to hypocrisy, something it appears you're acutely familiar with. So, what do you want the police to get (the topic), CIT training or religious lessons?

Hey how about "intellectually dishonest? That is another of your favorite hidy holes. Mostly to you, as it fits.

 

Now, wanna talk about police killings and how unnecessary many of the are?  Love to, if you are done with your attacks on Christians You know, the actual topic! Or do you prefer to continue your whine about your strawman points? Again, it is your attacks on Christians and the police (your "victims" list) that are the straw.


 

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Message 25 of 39

@rk9152 wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@afisher wrote:

  I am currently working on a Free Speech project.   One of my assignments was to review the local  Police Union Contract.    That then expanded to reading Police Union contracts from around the nation.     Few mention Crisis Intervention Training or re-training.

 

   That should be added to all Police Department training and yes citizens should / could be involved by both attending and speaking to this issue so that local and State legislators start hearing that citizens are demanding CIT training and working with National Alliance on Mental Health.  


Thank you for your efforts in this area, afisher.

 

It appears that some believe if someone is in crises, it's best just to shoot them.  And many of these pathetic folks call themselves "Christians"....quite the oxy***ron.

 

We CAN do better....


How do you associate the need for CIT training with an attack on Christians??? It's not an attack on Christians, "rk", it's an attack on CINO's (Christians in name only).  Certainly you understand the difference....don't you?  got it - it is an attack on people you disagree with and you use their religion as a vehicle for the attack. Actually, you don't "got it".  I don't have much respect for hypocrits, whether they're Libs, Cons or Christians that hide behind the label and actually behave counter to the teachings.  Maybe you embrace these folks, but I don't.  Someday I expect you might "get it", but your posts are far from it.  I agree that it is a valuable tool for police departments but for civil reasons, not Christianity. Really?  First, I agree it's a valuable tool and it's nice to see you believe that as well.  But, aren't Christians supposed to be "civil"?  Can't the reasons be "both" Again an attack on Christians. Why no just stick with the positive aspects of CIT Training. You must have a real "thing" for Christians. Because you made such a big deal of "Christians".  Wanna dance together on something we agree on?  No thank you. Remember, we are supposed to separate Church and State. So, you can't expect a City to install CIT training for the police officers for "Christian reasons". No one suggested such, so why create ANOTHER straw argument? I believe introducing religion into a discussion on police training is the real straw man I bet you do, but most can see I didn't....It was a reference to hypocrisy, something it appears you're acutely familiar with. Hey how about "intellectually dishonest? That is another of your favorite hidy holes. Mostly to you, as it fits.

 

Now, wanna talk about police killings and how unnecessary many of the are?  You know, the actual topic! Or do you prefer to continue your whine about your strawman points?


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Message 26 of 39

More training will do nothing, so long as the streets provide a "counter-education".

More police will do something.

A return to an America where (like it said in the song) "every kid had a pretty good shot, to get as far as his old man got" and removing the military grade weapons from civilian hands will make a solution possible.

 

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Re: We’re Asking the Wrong Ques About Police Shootings

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Message 27 of 39

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@afisher wrote:

  I am currently working on a Free Speech project.   One of my assignments was to review the local  Police Union Contract.    That then expanded to reading Police Union contracts from around the nation.     Few mention Crisis Intervention Training or re-training.

 

   That should be added to all Police Department training and yes citizens should / could be involved by both attending and speaking to this issue so that local and State legislators start hearing that citizens are demanding CIT training and working with National Alliance on Mental Health.  


Thank you for your efforts in this area, afisher.

 

It appears that some believe if someone is in crises, it's best just to shoot them.  And many of these pathetic folks call themselves "Christians"....quite the oxy***ron.

 

We CAN do better....


How do you associate the need for CIT training with an attack on Christians??? It's not an attack on Christians, "rk", it's an attack on CINO's (Christians in name only).  Certainly you understand the difference....don't you?  got it - it is an attack on people you disagree with and you use their religion as a vehicle for the attack. Now it is all clear. I agree that it is a valuable tool for police departments but for civil reasons, not Christianity. Really?  First, I agree it's a valuable tool and it's nice to see you believe that as well.  But, aren't Christians supposed to be "civil"?  Can't the reasons be "both" Again an attack on Christians. Why no just stick with the positive aspects of CIT Training. You must have a real "thing" for Christians. ? Remember, we are supposed to separate Church and State. So, you can't expect a City to install CIT training for the police officers for "Christian reasons". No one suggested such, so why create ANOTHER straw argument? I believe introducing religion into a discussion on police training is the real straw man and you are hiding behind the term. Hey how about "intellectually dishonest? That is another of your favorite hidy holes.


 

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Re: We’re Asking the Wrong Ques About Police Shootings

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Message 28 of 39

One more thought on the violence on our streets.

I just re-watched Ken burns excellent series on WWII and in both the European and pacific theaters the GIs they interviewed talked about how they had very little trouble shooting THE ENEMY, simply because THEY WERE THE ENEMY. Not something they thought about at the time, but definately something they carried with them on the battlefield.

 

Republicans have made a cottage industry about vilifying at least 47% of white Americans because they don't earn enough to pay Federal income tax, nearly all Hispanics because they're "illegal" and ALL Muslims because they're terrorists.

 

I would suggest this unending drum beat of hate from the Republican Party's leadership has made most of "the public" THE ENEMY, and their gun laws have made our streets a battlefield. I contend there's a very good chance our police are simply reacting to the GOPer-inspired world they live in the same way their fathers reacted in the World Tojo and Hitler put them.

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Message 29 of 39

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@Olderscout66 wrote:

Before assessing the MORALITY of shootings by police, let's take a deep breath and consider what WE have done to the daily job of a police officer in America.

 

1. We armed the bad guys with MUCH more firepower and body armor than the cop on the beat is likely to have

 

2. To help pay for Reagan's taxscam, we closed virtually all the Government supported mental health custodial facilities

 

3. We killed revenue sharing that provided a huge amount of support for State and local law enforcement,

 

4. We allowed MILLIONS of good paying jobs to be taken from Americans and given to commie slaves

 

5. We have the most absurd drug laws on the planet,

Your point is well taken, but I disagree with your "count of items".  Here's what I mean based on your numbering of your points:

 

1.  I agree.  But rarely does one hear of a suspect wearing body armor.  Many shootings are related to domestic violence or mental health issues (like you pointed out) and these folks aren't usually walking around looking like Robocop.  Your point about guns is well taken.  However, it sounds as if, and I could be wrong here but it's an impression, sometimes it sounds cops are being paranoid vs. very cautious.  The Yanez/Castille case sounds like one of these cases.  Would a criminal tell a cop he has a gun and that he's licensed, and then try to pull the gun on a cop?  Highly unlikely...paranoia vs. caution.

 

2.  Agreed.  That's why the article included here is pertinent.  To NerdyMom's point, in many calls, an EMT should be dispatched as well.

 

3.  I believe almost everyone agree's there should be more police, and better trained.

 

4.  Jobs are indeed a factor, but IMO, that may be increasing some crime, but not sure it's causing many more police shootings.  When cops are shooting people "armed with a stick or a rock" as has been illustrated in the databases, that's not good police work....police have time and numbers on their side.  Police shooting into fleeing cars?  DUMB!  Police shooting fleeing suspects that aren't armed and shooting at them in the back?  DUMB!  We've seen video's of all these situations.  Here in my small town, as posted earlier, a cop shot two, one was a supposed hostage, when the two were surrounded by at least a dozen cops.  The two were armed with one small knife.....there was no attempt to taze the one with the knife or diffuse whatever was going on.  There was no reason to shoot and kill either of them.  And it cost the City millions.

 

5.  Agreed again, somewhat.  **bleep**, I agreed with you more than I expected. But as part of your #2, we need more drug treatment programs.

 

And lastly, I don't think anyone is getting medieval on the police, a bit of an exaggeration, maybe for effect.  But we have to acknowledge we can do better, in area's you suggested as well and treat all humans with respect, just like the respect Castile showed Yanez last July....but it STILL got him killed.  Let's not confuse what we could do better and make improvements with and "getting medieval".

 

Good post, Scout!


1. The North Hollywood bankrobbery when the perps had to be shot in the head at close range because of their heavy "HOMEMADE" body armor leaps to mind when discussing the "Robo-antiCops", as does the fact they were using armor piercing rounds. Letting civilians possess endless quantities of military hardware is insane.

 

2. Good point, but there's not enough revenue to provide enough EMTs either.

 

3. Too true, but the "Government IS the problem" mindset of GOPers keeps that from happening.

 

4. When crime increases because a man cannot find a decent job, so does the number of perps who are well armed because they're not just out looking for grocery money, they're looking for a fight.

 

5. What we need is DECRIMINALIZATION of drugs. Portugal's experience needs to become ours - Nixon's War on Drugs Blacks and Hippies Use is a much more devistating failure than Prohibition every was.

 

Glad to see we're in basic agreement - thanks for the thoughtful comments.

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Re: We’re Asking the Wrong Ques About Police Shootings

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Message 30 of 39

@Olderscout66 wrote:

Before assessing the MORALITY of shootings by police, let's take a deep breath and consider what WE have done to the daily job of a police officer in America.

 

1. We armed the bad guys with MUCH more firepower and body armor than the cop on the beat is likely to have in a confrontation with said bad guy. We allow bad guys to own fully automatic weapons, up to and including miniguns - all they have to do is pay a $200 registration fee. For military grade long guns that can fire accuratily 40-50 times a minute for extended periods or in burst of 20 rounds (std clip) in 3 seconds, no registration fee is required. Nor is there a problem buying cop-killer bullets (std military rounds aka "full metal jacket") that can penetrate virtually all body armor. Then we expect the police to deal with these folks with reason and courtesy UNTIL they begin actually shooting people.

 

2. To help pay for Reagan's taxscam, we closed virtually all the Government supported mental health custodial facilities and turned all those who prior to Reagan would've been confined because of severe mental problems out on the street FOR THE POLICE TO DEAL WITH.

 

3. We killed revenue sharing that provided a huge amount of support for State and local law enforcement, and jrbush killed Clinton's modest plan that put an additional 100,000 cops on the beat so the Uberrich could get another tax cut.

 

4. We allowed MILLIONS of good paying jobs to be taken from Americans and given to commie slaves in the name of greater compensation for the senior management, and then wonder why the people who cannot find good jobs wind up doing criminal things to survive, but expect the police to deal with them too.

 

5. We have the most absurd drug laws on the planet, creating a huge criminal class involved in the distribution, sale and use of those drugs, and again expect the police to deal with it. In Afghanistan, we give support to farmers who grow POPPIES, which account for most of the hereon on our streets (because the alternative crop, cotton, would compete with american farmers) and expect the police to deal with that as well.

 

None of those things - 1-5 - and a lot more was NOT part of a cop's job in 1970. Before we get all medieval on the police, let's take a sec and see if there's some things we can do so they DO NOT feel in mortal danger quite so often while protecting and defending US.


Your point is well taken, but I disagree with your "count of items".  Here's what I mean based on your numbering of your points:

 

1.  I agree.  But rarely does one hear of a suspect wearing body armor.  Many shootings are related to domestic violence or mental health issues (like you pointed out) and these folks aren't usually walking around looking like Robocop.  Your point about guns is well taken.  However, it sounds as if, and I could be wrong here but it's an impression, sometimes it sounds cops are being paranoid vs. very cautious.  The Yanez/Castille case sounds like one of these cases.  Would a criminal tell a cop he has a gun and that he's licensed, and then try to pull the gun on a cop?  Highly unlikely...paranoia vs. caution.

 

2.  Agreed.  That's why the article included here is pertinent.  To NerdyMom's point, in many calls, an EMT should be dispatched as well.

 

3.  I believe almost everyone agree's there should be more police, and better trained.

 

4.  Jobs are indeed a factor, but IMO, that may be increasing some crime, but not sure it's causing many more police shootings.  When cops are shooting people "armed with a stick or a rock" as has been illustrated in the databases, that's not good police work....police have time and numbers on their side.  Police shooting into fleeing cars?  DUMB!  Police shooting fleeing suspects that aren't armed and shooting at them in the back?  DUMB!  We've seen video's of all these situations.  Here in my small town, as posted earlier, a cop shot two, one was a supposed hostage, when the two were surrounded by at least a dozen cops.  The two were armed with one small knife.....there was no attempt to taze the one with the knife or diffuse whatever was going on.  There was no reason to shoot and kill either of them.  And it cost the City millions.

 

5.  Agreed again, somewhat.  **bleep**, I agreed with you more than I expected. But as part of your #2, we need more drug treatment programs.

 

And lastly, I don't think anyone is getting medieval on the police, a bit of an exaggeration, maybe for effect.  But we have to acknowledge we can do better, in area's you suggested as well and treat all humans with respect, just like the respect Castile showed Yanez last July....but it STILL got him killed.  Let's not confuse what we could do better and make improvements with and "getting medieval".

 

Good post, Scout!


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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