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Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

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Message 21 of 54

@rk9152wrote:  For purposes of discussion I am still wondering what our posters see as the flaws in our Democracy. EC has been mentioned but there is nothing new in it so it could not contribute to a reduction in our status.

Your question seems to focus on the most recent score reduction which you can answer yourself by reading the Economist's reports.  Here's what I think is wrong with our democracy (or lack of).

 

It's not just the EC but the whole system that denies the choices of We the People.  Both Gore & Clinton were chosen by voters but the undemocratic EC chose their opponents.  The Senate's makeup is horribly undemocratic, weighted heavily toward voters from small states.   Think how that affects SCOTUS' & other Courts' balances for decades to come.  And on that point, think how ludicrous it was for the GOP to get away with denying the voters' elected president's choice for the most recent SCOTUS vacancy - Obama chose Merrick Garland, not Gorsuch.  Then, of course, we have the election theft caused by gerrymandering of the House.  Even with eventual recourse in the Courts, much damage is done before things are corrected.

 

However, all of above pales compared to democracy's destruction rendered by the influence of money.  No matter what an undemocratically appointed SCOTUS might think, money should NOT have a voice in our elections.  Today it is the most influential force of all.

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Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

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Message 22 of 54

@rk9152wrote:

@sp362wrote:


T

 

For purposes of discussion I am still wondering what our posters see as the flaws in our Democracy. EC has been mentioned but there is nothing new in it so it could not contribute to a reduction in our status.


For the purpose of this discussion I guess that you have not read the many posts that tell about what they think is wrong with this Democracy.
Going to the pols at election time and voting is just one of the minimum requirements that makes a Democracy.

Then, there is the legitimacy  of the elections which apparently is now in peril with the Russian meddling. and as we have seen, nothing is being done to stop it.
Then there are the policies themselves. The Congress and the Senate being ridden by corruption and in the hands of the Lobby system.
The lack of trust in government that exists in the American public. 
The lack of transparency that we see in many of the policies that are done,The ignorance that the American people have in the workings of their own government.
The money that we   all know corrupts  not only the elections but the candidates as well.
Now, if you really want more things that are wrong with our Democracy, take a look at many countries that say that they have a Democratic system and you will see how similarly we operate.
 


 

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Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

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Message 23 of 54

@sp362wrote:


The terms "Democracy" and Flawed Democracy" are arbitrary (we are only 0.03 points away from the cutoff).  More telling is the fact that we are not even close to #1, which I attribute, in part, to the way we are determining elections.

 

For purposes of discussion I am still wondering what our posters see as the flaws in our Democracy. EC has been mentioned but there is nothing new in it so it could not contribute to a reduction in our status.


 

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Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

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Message 24 of 54

@rk9152wrote:

@sp362wrote:

@rk9152wrote:

@sp362wrote:


First, YOU have me confused with somebody else. 

 

Right you are, you are not the originator. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

The title says we are a flawed nation and I am just trying to determine the flaws that posters see. So far I have seen gerrymandering, the EC, and something about the Civil War.

 

What flaws do you see in our nation?

 

Now you can mea cupla because I did not - " YOU asked why the US is not as high up on this list as YOU want...".


That is the way I interpreted your response, if it was incorrect than I am sorry.  Again if you want to look at the methodology and challenge that, or the classification of the final rating, that is fine.  They assigned points to 60 different questions and when averaged out to a scale with a maximum of 10, if you got 8.01 or more you were a Democracy and 8.00 and under (I didn't look at what the ending point was), you were a Failed Democracy.  Personally, I think that statement is arbitrary and fairly meaningless.  If I did the math right, one "yes" on one of the questions would have reclassified us into the Democracy category.  More importantly is where we fall on this list (that is probably about right), who is above and below us (especially the countries in 20th and 22nd place) and whether we are moving up, down or staying the same. 

 

As I have said in the past, I think the biggest area where we can start to improve is to get rid of the Electoral College, which allows some votes to count three times more than others.  This has nothing to do with Trump's win, since nobody knows whether or not he would have actually won a popular vote, since there are so many areas of the Country where one candidate or the other simply didn't bother to campaign.  I think the Electoral College needs to go so that votes are treated equally and candidates are forced to campaign Nationally.


Posting that title seems to indicate some rather serious flaw in our nation. But the EC has been around for a "few" years during periods when we were not "flawed".

 

I'm just trying to get ideas as to what other posters see as our flaws.


The terms "Democracy" and Flawed Democracy" are arbitrary (we are only 0.03 points away from the cutoff).  More telling is the fact that we are not even close to #1, which I attribute, in part, to the way we are determining elections.

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Message 25 of 54

@sp362wrote:

@rk9152wrote:

@sp362wrote:


First, YOU have me confused with somebody else. 

 

Right you are, you are not the originator. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

The title says we are a flawed nation and I am just trying to determine the flaws that posters see. So far I have seen gerrymandering, the EC, and something about the Civil War.

 

What flaws do you see in our nation?

 

Now you can mea cupla because I did not - " YOU asked why the US is not as high up on this list as YOU want...".


That is the way I interpreted your response, if it was incorrect than I am sorry.  Again if you want to look at the methodology and challenge that, or the classification of the final rating, that is fine.  They assigned points to 60 different questions and when averaged out to a scale with a maximum of 10, if you got 8.01 or more you were a Democracy and 8.00 and under (I didn't look at what the ending point was), you were a Failed Democracy.  Personally, I think that statement is arbitrary and fairly meaningless.  If I did the math right, one "yes" on one of the questions would have reclassified us into the Democracy category.  More importantly is where we fall on this list (that is probably about right), who is above and below us (especially the countries in 20th and 22nd place) and whether we are moving up, down or staying the same. 

 

As I have said in the past, I think the biggest area where we can start to improve is to get rid of the Electoral College, which allows some votes to count three times more than others.  This has nothing to do with Trump's win, since nobody knows whether or not he would have actually won a popular vote, since there are so many areas of the Country where one candidate or the other simply didn't bother to campaign.  I think the Electoral College needs to go so that votes are treated equally and candidates are forced to campaign Nationally.


Posting that title seems to indicate some rather serious flaw in our nation. But the EC has been around for a "few" years during periods when we were not "flawed".

 

I'm just trying to get ideas as to what other posters see as our flaws.

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Message 26 of 54

@GailL1wrote:


In fact, rker321, there are other reason to NOT give Delta the fuel tax break so it is not just one issue at play here for the State Legislature.

 

AJC 02/22/2018 - Delta Air Lines Fights Georgia Fuel Tax - neighbors worried

 

The carrier has been working awfully hard to get out of continuing to pay $40 million a year in local and state of Georgia taxes on jet fuel.

 

A bill backed by Gov. Nathan Deal is pending before state legislators to give Delta its tax-avoidance wish. (Anyone who pays for jet fuel could benefit, but Delta ostensibly would get the biggest slice.)

 

This has put Delta in a battle with its neighbors.

 

Nearly $20 million of Delta’s jet fuel tax payment goes to schools and local government in Clayton County, which hosts both company property and much of the airport.

 

For Clayton schools alone, the cut would eliminate 17 percent of the money used for construction projects. For Delta the total savings would be equal to just over one percent of its global profits last year.

 

So remember when you hear about support for NOT supporting this jet fuel tax break, you will know there are several different points at play here - not just the NRA initiative.


Gail  if there are other reasons as to why the Ga legislators have for dealing this with fuel issue. why are they trying it to the NRA situation. ? If Delta wants to cut the discounts that the NRA members have why is the Legislators in Ga  put that as a condition of passing a bill? 
Please, Gail you are too much of an intelligent woman to try to sell me  on any of this.

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Message 27 of 54

@Roxanna35wrote:

So RK  we don't have a flawed democracy?  so what do you call the Republican legislators threatening Delta unless they again resume the relations that they have with the NRA  or they will not pass a bill regarding fuel costs. what can cost this private corporation millions of dollars?

Blackmail is the name of that action in case you have forgotten. but of course no matter what immorality your group does is ok with you.


In fact, rker321, there are other reason to NOT give Delta the fuel tax break so it is not just one issue at play here for the State Legislature.

 

AJC 02/22/2018 - Delta Air Lines Fights Georgia Fuel Tax - neighbors worried

 

The carrier has been working awfully hard to get out of continuing to pay $40 million a year in local and state of Georgia taxes on jet fuel.

 

A bill backed by Gov. Nathan Deal is pending before state legislators to give Delta its tax-avoidance wish. (Anyone who pays for jet fuel could benefit, but Delta ostensibly would get the biggest slice.)

 

This has put Delta in a battle with its neighbors.

 

Nearly $20 million of Delta’s jet fuel tax payment goes to schools and local government in Clayton County, which hosts both company property and much of the airport.

 

For Clayton schools alone, the cut would eliminate 17 percent of the money used for construction projects. For Delta the total savings would be equal to just over one percent of its global profits last year.

 

So remember when you hear about support for NOT supporting this jet fuel tax break, you will know there are several different points at play here - not just the NRA initiative.


* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Message 28 of 54

@rk9152wrote:

@sp362wrote:


First, YOU have me confused with somebody else. 

 

Right you are, you are not the originator. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

The title says we are a flawed nation and I am just trying to determine the flaws that posters see. So far I have seen gerrymandering, the EC, and something about the Civil War.

 

What flaws do you see in our nation?

 

Now you can mea cupla because I did not - " YOU asked why the US is not as high up on this list as YOU want...".


That is the way I interpreted your response, if it was incorrect than I am sorry.  Again if you want to look at the methodology and challenge that, or the classification of the final rating, that is fine.  They assigned points to 60 different questions and when averaged out to a scale with a maximum of 10, if you got 8.01 or more you were a Democracy and 8.00 and under (I didn't look at what the ending point was), you were a Failed Democracy.  Personally, I think that statement is arbitrary and fairly meaningless.  If I did the math right, one "yes" on one of the questions would have reclassified us into the Democracy category.  More importantly is where we fall on this list (that is probably about right), who is above and below us (especially the countries in 20th and 22nd place) and whether we are moving up, down or staying the same. 

 

As I have said in the past, I think the biggest area where we can start to improve is to get rid of the Electoral College, which allows some votes to count three times more than others.  This has nothing to do with Trump's win, since nobody knows whether or not he would have actually won a popular vote, since there are so many areas of the Country where one candidate or the other simply didn't bother to campaign.  I think the Electoral College needs to go so that votes are treated equally and candidates are forced to campaign Nationally.

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Message 29 of 54

@Olderscout66wrote:


Another 100% Troll - guess you got the memo about Der Trumper being PROUD he's a Troll, so you will be too.

Sad to say, those Golden Showers the NRAGOP provide for the 99% are not fantasy, but only the dupes on the far right really enjoy the feeling.

 

We have ONE manor party promoting Gerrymanders and voter suppression. It's the same party that uses political office to reward the very rich by redistributing money from the bottom 99% to the very top of the 1%/ And its the same party that thinks Fox, Breightbart and Infowars are sources of NEWS.


Well, there you go again Jimmy scout - you got in TROLL, Der Trumper, NRAGOP, the 99%, dupes, the rich, tax cuts, Fox Breitbart and Infowars but nothing about the flaws in our democracy except gerrymandering which has been around for a long, long time and has always been bipartisan. Oh yeah, and "voter suppression" defined as expecting voters to have proper ID - that is a terrible flaw.

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Message 30 of 54

@sp362wrote:


First, YOU have me confused with somebody else. 

 

Right you are, you are not the originator. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

The title says we are a flawed nation and I am just trying to determine the flaws that posters see. So far I have seen gerrymandering, the EC, and something about the Civil War.

 

What flaws do you see in our nation?

 

Now you can mea cupla because I did not - " YOU asked why the US is not as high up on this list as YOU want...".

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