Reply
Highlighted
Treasured Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
139
Views

Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

139 Views
Message 11 of 54

@rk9152wrote:

@sp362wrote:


This is what I posted about it, what do you disagree with?

"That is the way I interpreted your response, if it was incorrect than I am sorry.  Again if you want to look at the methodology and challenge that, or the classification of the final rating, that is fine.  They assigned points to 60 different questions and when averaged out to a scale with a maximum of 10, if you got 8.01 or more you were a Democracy and 8.00 and under (I didn't look at what the ending point was), you were a Failed Democracy.  Personally, I think that statement is arbitrary and fairly meaningless.  If I did the math right, one "yes" on one of the questions would have reclassified us into the Democracy category.  More importantly is where we fall on this list (that is probably about right), who is above and below us (especially the countries in 20th and 22nd place) and whether we are moving up, down or staying the same. "


We are a great nation, we have been a model of democracy for the world. If someone doing a study determines that there is something wrong with us because the EC is part of our basic electoral structure - so be it.


Rk  I do understand your predicament. when we get old changes are very difficult to accept. and we all tend to look to the past in order to say that things were always a lot better than in the present.
Your refusal to see how much things have changed in this country is what makes you post irrelevant 
The world has gone forward and you cannot apparently understand that. Yes, we are now in the recessive status. I guess it happens to all great nations. you reach a peak and then start going down.


no name
Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
139
Views
Highlighted
Frequent Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
135
Views

Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

135 Views
Message 12 of 54

@rk9152wrote:
We are a great nation, we have been a model of democracy for the world. If someone doing a study determines that there is something wrong with us because the EC is part of our basic electoral structure - so be it.  

Getting back to the topic:  

  • "The Economist's 2017 Democracy Index can help Trump understand why we don't have more immigrants from Norway or any of those other Commie/Socialist countries in Northern Europe with their good schools, universal healthcare, low poverty, lesser inequality, stricter gun laws, etc.
  • As shown on the map & ranking table (see original post), those countries are considered "Full Democracies" while we're in the "Flawed" category. One major reason for our relatively poor showing is our economic inequality which the report agrees with many of us, will worsen due the recent tax law."
Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
135
Views
Highlighted
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
136
Views

Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

136 Views
Message 13 of 54

@sp362wrote:


This is what I posted about it, what do you disagree with?

"That is the way I interpreted your response, if it was incorrect than I am sorry.  Again if you want to look at the methodology and challenge that, or the classification of the final rating, that is fine.  They assigned points to 60 different questions and when averaged out to a scale with a maximum of 10, if you got 8.01 or more you were a Democracy and 8.00 and under (I didn't look at what the ending point was), you were a Failed Democracy.  Personally, I think that statement is arbitrary and fairly meaningless.  If I did the math right, one "yes" on one of the questions would have reclassified us into the Democracy category.  More importantly is where we fall on this list (that is probably about right), who is above and below us (especially the countries in 20th and 22nd place) and whether we are moving up, down or staying the same. "


We are a great nation, we have been a model of democracy for the world. If someone doing a study determines that there is something wrong with us because the EC is part of our basic electoral structure - so be it.

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
136
Views
Highlighted
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
156
Views

Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

156 Views
Message 14 of 54

@rk9152wrote:

@sp362wrote:


 

rk,

I agree with smca, you are getting too hung up a very minimal decline.  Like anything else, others are improving; so, if you aren't improving also, you are falling behind.  Both the increase in Gerrymandering (there is a reason 14% approve of Congress but Congressmen keep getting reelected) and Citizen's United have not moved Democracy forward.

 

I am not hung up on anything except trying to figure out what posters are unhappy about. So far, I have seen nothing to justify the report that is the topic.

 

Example - the EC goes way back. It certainly is not a reason for a recent dip.


 


This is what I posted about it, what do you disagree with?

"That is the way I interpreted your response, if it was incorrect than I am sorry.  Again if you want to look at the methodology and challenge that, or the classification of the final rating, that is fine.  They assigned points to 60 different questions and when averaged out to a scale with a maximum of 10, if you got 8.01 or more you were a Democracy and 8.00 and under (I didn't look at what the ending point was), you were a Failed Democracy.  Personally, I think that statement is arbitrary and fairly meaningless.  If I did the math right, one "yes" on one of the questions would have reclassified us into the Democracy category.  More importantly is where we fall on this list (that is probably about right), who is above and below us (especially the countries in 20th and 22nd place) and whether we are moving up, down or staying the same. "

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
156
Views
Highlighted
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
151
Views

Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

151 Views
Message 15 of 54

@Roxanna35wrote:

@rk9152wrote:

@Roxanna35wrote:



 


True, we do not line people up and require them to vote. But to me our way (freedom to vote) is more democratic. I understand the the USSR had a very high turnout.
Please, do not twist my words, I said that it was probably the only thing that people thought that it was what made our country a Democracy.
So is non-voting a problem that needs fixing by the government or not?
As to Russian interference - no one has shown there was any effect. But, if you want to blame Obama for not dealing with that beyond "I told him to knock it off" - that is your right. Again Darling hung up on the past. I am sepakeing about the future and what has not been done to avoid what happened in 2016
O.K. if you are "sepakeing" about the future - why are you blaming the President? Do you know what the techies are doing?
Lobbyists they've be around for a long time. I can't see that as causing any new diminishment of our standing. The system has been deteriorating in the last decades and it is not doing any favor to any of us.
How so??
"Stupid American" - did we get stupider lately?Definitely, and we have the results in what we have today for Goverment.
And your solution - only those "smarter than anyone" Dems get to vote?
What do those countries you want me to look at have that is more democratic? I know some want socialized medicine but that it socialism not democracy..  Oh please again, I was asking you to look at the Banana Republics they can show you how similar we have become.
Why would I look at Banana Republics to understand Democracy. I see no comparison - could you specify?
So, if you can contain your snottiness and stick to the issue - what has caused out comparative slip. The source really doesn't say. And, anyway, I am more interested in the views of my fellow posters. Gerrymandering. Corruption at the top. Money that can buy legislatoers with impunity and no limits. and the lack of education of the majority of the citizens.
Gerrymandering has been around forever. The previous Admin corrupted federal agencies, not this one. And there we are, back to the "we on the left are so much smarter than you bumpkins" jazz. Apparently, pc has a new follower. 

 


 


 

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
151
Views
Highlighted
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
147
Views

Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

147 Views
Message 16 of 54

@sp362wrote:


 

rk,

I agree with smca, you are getting too hung up a very minimal decline.  Like anything else, others are improving; so, if you aren't improving also, you are falling behind.  Both the increase in Gerrymandering (there is a reason 14% approve of Congress but Congressmen keep getting reelected) and Citizen's United have not moved Democracy forward.

 

I am not hung up on anything except trying to figure out what posters are unhappy about. So far, I have seen nothing to justify the report that is the topic.

 

Example - the EC goes way back. It certainly is not a reason for a recent dip.


 

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
147
Views
Highlighted
Treasured Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
149
Views

Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

149 Views
Message 17 of 54

@rk9152wrote:

@Roxanna35wrote:



 


True, we do not line people up and require them to vote. But to me our way (freedom to vote) is more democratic. I understand the the USSR had a very high turnout.
Please, do not twist my words, I said that it was probably the only thing that people thought that it was what made our country a Democracy.
As to Russian interference - no one has shown there was any effect. But, if you want to blame Obama for not dealing with that beyond "I told him to knock it off" - that is your right. Again Darling hung up on the past. I am sepakeing about the future and what has not been done to avoid what happened in 2016
Lobbyists they've be around for a long time. I can't see that as causing any new diminishment of our standing. The system has been deteriorating in the last decades and it is not doing any favor to any of us.
"Stupid American" - did we get stupider lately?Definitely, and we have the results in what we have today for Goverment.
What do those countries you want me to look at have that is more democratic? I know some want socialized medicine but that it socialism not democracy..  Oh please again, I was asking you to look at the Banana Republics they can show you how similar we have become.
So, if you can contain your snottiness and stick to the issue - what has caused out comparative slip. The source really doesn't say. And, anyway, I am more interested in the views of my fellow posters. Gerrymandering. Corruption at the top. Money that can buy legislatoers with impunity and no limits. and the lack of education of the majority of the citizens.

 


 

no name
Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
149
Views
Highlighted
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
152
Views

Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

152 Views
Message 18 of 54

@rk9152wrote:

@smcawrote:

@rk9152wrote:  For purposes of discussion I am still wondering what our posters see as the flaws in our Democracy. EC has been mentioned but there is nothing new in it so it could not contribute to a reduction in our status.

Your question seems to focus on the most recent score reduction which you can answer yourself by reading the Economist's reports.  Here's what I think is wrong with our democracy (or lack of).

I prefer to focus on the thinking of my fellow posters - this is a discussion board.

 

It's not just the EC but the whole system that denies the choices of We the People.  Both Gore & Clinton were chosen by voters but the undemocratic EC chose their opponents.  The Senate's makeup is horribly undemocratic, weighted heavily toward voters from small states.   Think how that affects SCOTUS' & other Courts' balances for decades to come.  And on that point, think how ludicrous it was for the GOP to get away with denying the voters' elected president's choice for the most recent SCOTUS vacancy - Obama chose Merrick Garland, not Gorsuch.  Then, of course, we have the election theft caused by gerrymandering of the House.  Even with eventual recourse in the Courts, much damage is done before things are corrected.

The EC goes back centuries so, if we are flawed, we were born flawed. The Senate "weighting" does back to our founding so I guess we were founded flawed. Gerrymandering is a long time tradition so it would appear that we have been flawed for a long time.

 

However, all of above pales compared to democracy's destruction rendered by the influence of money.  No matter what an undemocratically appointed SCOTUS might think, money should NOT have a voice in our elections.  Today it is the most influential force of all.

McCain-Feingold was touted as taking the money out of politics. It failed. I can't see any possible solution except for making campaigns totally cost free. That would be quite a project. I agree that our campaign cycles are ridiculously long but I don't know how to change that constitutionally.


 


rk,

I agree with smca, you are getting too hung up a very minimal decline.  Like anything else, others are improving; so, if you aren't improving also, you are falling behind.  Both the increase in Gerrymandering (there is a reason 14% approve of Congress but Congressmen keep getting reelected) and Citizen's United have not moved Democracy forward.

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
152
Views
Highlighted
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
152
Views

Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

152 Views
Message 19 of 54

@smcawrote:

@rk9152wrote:  For purposes of discussion I am still wondering what our posters see as the flaws in our Democracy. EC has been mentioned but there is nothing new in it so it could not contribute to a reduction in our status.

Your question seems to focus on the most recent score reduction which you can answer yourself by reading the Economist's reports.  Here's what I think is wrong with our democracy (or lack of).

I prefer to focus on the thinking of my fellow posters - this is a discussion board.

 

It's not just the EC but the whole system that denies the choices of We the People.  Both Gore & Clinton were chosen by voters but the undemocratic EC chose their opponents.  The Senate's makeup is horribly undemocratic, weighted heavily toward voters from small states.   Think how that affects SCOTUS' & other Courts' balances for decades to come.  And on that point, think how ludicrous it was for the GOP to get away with denying the voters' elected president's choice for the most recent SCOTUS vacancy - Obama chose Merrick Garland, not Gorsuch.  Then, of course, we have the election theft caused by gerrymandering of the House.  Even with eventual recourse in the Courts, much damage is done before things are corrected.

The EC goes back centuries so, if we are flawed, we were born flawed. The Senate "weighting" does back to our founding so I guess we were founded flawed. Gerrymandering is a long time tradition so it would appear that we have been flawed for a long time.

 

However, all of above pales compared to democracy's destruction rendered by the influence of money.  No matter what an undemocratically appointed SCOTUS might think, money should NOT have a voice in our elections.  Today it is the most influential force of all.

McCain-Feingold was touted as taking the money out of politics. It failed. I can't see any possible solution except for making campaigns totally cost free. That would be quite a project. I agree that our campaign cycles are ridiculously long but I don't know how to change that constitutionally.


 

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
152
Views
Highlighted
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
155
Views

Re: USA = A Flawed Democracy!

155 Views
Message 20 of 54

@Roxanna35wrote:


For the purpose of this discussion I guess that you have not read the many posts that tell about what they think is wrong with this Democracy.
Going to the pols at election time and voting is just one of the minimum requirements that makes a Democracy.

Then, there is the legitimacy  of the elections which apparently is now in peril with the Russian meddling. and as we have seen, nothing is being done to stop it.
Then there are the policies themselves. The Congress and the Senate being ridden by corruption and in the hands of the Lobby system.
The lack of trust in government that exists in the American public. 
The lack of transparency that we see in many of the policies that are done,The ignorance that the American people have in the workings of their own government.
The money that we   all know corrupts  not only the elections but the candidates as well.
Now, if you really want more things that are wrong with our Democracy, take a look at many countries that say that they have a Democratic system and you will see how similarly we operate.
 


True, we do not line people up and require them to vote. But to me our way (freedom to vote) is more democratic. I understand the the USSR had a very high turnout.
As to Russian interference - no one has shown there was any effect. But, if you want to blame Obama for not dealing with that beyond "I told him to knock it off" - that is your right.
Lobbyists they've be around for a long time. I can't see that as causing any new diminishment of our standing.
"Stupid American" - did we get stupider lately?
What do those countries you want me to look at have that is more democratic? I know some want socialized medicine but that it socialism not democracy..
So, if you can contain your snottiness and stick to the issue - what has caused out comparative slip. The source really doesn't say. And, anyway, I am more interested in the views of my fellow posters.

 

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
155
Views
cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
Users
Announcements

AARP Coronavirus Call-in Event

AARP will host a weekly, live Coronavirus Information Tele-Town Hall on Thursdays at 1 pm (ET). Learn more on AARP's Coronavirus Tele-Town Hall page and join us each week for the latest information.

Calling is toll-free. During the 90-minute live event, government experts will answer your questions and address health concerns related to COVID-19.