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Re: Truth Is In The Eye of the Beholder

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Message 1 of 39

@john258 wrote:

 



So you are saying that Native Americans should assimilate  by giving up their language, and customs. Should they also be forced to give up their sovereign lands to? They were here first so it might be the other way around. There is a lot of this country that was Spanish long before it was English. CA is one example plus most of the Southwestern States. By you that means the English speakers who settled there should have started speaking Spanish. All I can say to you is that you do not understand this country, and what you push is one reason we have problems.


I can see that you are incorrectly understanding my posts.  I don't believe that any immigrant shoud forget their   native tongue, I do speak Spanish quite well thank you and have not forgotten a word of that language, and have ensured that my children speaks it also. I still cook black beans and rice  and many other Cuban foods.

What I have said is the need to  understand the country that we live in today. to understand the national language and speak that language as well as your own.  As far as I am concerned the native Americans can speak whatever they want. but  they should also include in their knowledge English. 
I can see that we live in a country that embraces extremes and that for now is not able to understand the middle ground of many things. This division has had a very negative impact in the US

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Re: Truth Is In The Eye of the Beholder

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Message 2 of 39

"Truth is perception" only applies to those who will NOT examine reality.

It is doubly flawed when the perceptors are in awe of the DEceptors - that is, people who cling to their incorrect ideas are most likely to do so when they rely on propaganda that tells them what they want to hear instead of what is actually happening.

 

We are a Nation of Immigrants, so the notion that more immigrants will change anything in our "National Character" is a tad absurd. On the other hand, believing there is value in the older immigrants persecuting and attacking the newer immigrants is simply racist stupidity.

 

AS for some of those concerns that exist only because Fox and frauds tells their viewers they MUST be concerned:

 

If you give the immigrants decent jobs they will grow the economy and the available housing market. Keep them poor and they'll have to settle for existing housing.

 

If you refuse to tax the rich so the infrastructure, including schools, deteriorates, the it will deteriorate faster if there's more students. However, if you simply return to the tax structure that supported our greatest economic advances, there will be no problem.

 

Wage competition is NOT caused by immigrants. It is caused by greedy Republican employers who have their propaganda machine tell their workers they must accept less or their jobs will be taken by immigrants. No immigrant has ever gone to the boss's house, held a gun to his head, and forced the boss to fire an American and give the immigrant the job for less pay. That is 100% the doing of the boss.

 

Stress on the social support network only comes from failing to properly support the network. the current "pressure" on Social Security and Medicare are caused by refusing to increase the systems' revenue by increasing the cap for SS and negotiating costs for Medicare. No immigrants prevent the obvious solutions, that is 100% Republicans.

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Re: Truth Is In The Eye of the Beholder

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Message 3 of 39

Truth Is In The Eye of the Beholder

 

 

 

People believe what they want to believe.

 

 

Arguments have little or no impact.

 

 

The USA still hasn't come to grips with Black immigration from hundreds of years ago. ( slavery )

 

 

All you can do is non violent protest, talk about it, keep talking about, don't allow white supremacy, racism, violence, Nazism, or fascism to become normalized.

 

 

You can't change people's minds, but you can vote, if you're allowed to. 

 

 

That is why democracy is so important, and why attacks on democracy are so serious.

 

 

Democracy might be the only voice that matters.

 

 

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Re: Truth Is In The Eye of the Beholder

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Message 4 of 39

@GailL1 wrote:

@ManicProgressive wrote:

Anecdotal only. My county is one third immigrant. Out of over a million people. We have all those neighborhoods and all those signs in foreign languages. Where I live, it’s mostly Chinese and South Asian immigrants because the school cluster is so good. The realtor who sells most homes is a Chinese immigrant and her sign is in Chinese.  Do you assume because of that, that she can’t speak English? Because she can. And I will use her when we get ready to sell our house.

 

My husband is an immigrant.  He has a thing for the Russian grocery stores.  When he goes in, they greet him in Russian and he responds by saying “hi.” They all immediately switch to English. Same with the Persian grocery, the Arabic grocery, the Asian grocery.  Well,they switch to English for me. My husband speaks Arabic and a good bit of Farsi so he just goes on with them in their native languages. The Indian grocery, however, has staff who always speaks English to me. Maybe because I’m white and obviously not south Asian. 

 

That article I posted says most immigrants come here knowing some English.  And i believe that. I often think Americans get wigged out by foreign languages because it’s not part of our culture to learn a second one.  But most non-English speaking countries across the globe are used to switching between languages to do business.  

 

And yes, if a group of immigrants are together and they speak a different common language, they often revert to that. One, it’s easier. Two, there are many nuanced meanings in different languages that people may want to convey that just don’t survive translation.  To me this brings a richness to the community. Definitely not a bad thing.  And, IMO, it’s an additional skill set, or cultural practice, that Americans need to adopt - being multilingual. The rest of the world is. We are getting left behind.  


I do not care if they want to continue their own language and culture - I have no problem there - my problem is that they are not opening up this market area to others - they need to at least have the translation available in English to market all their wares.  They are losing business otherwise.  This is a high traffic location - prime - like I said, it is wall to wall commercial. 

 

Having a sign out front in their native tongue doesn't tell others who may not know their language even what their business might be - in an area such as this, you don't just stop and walk in - too congested to park and browse and then reenter the major highway.

 

They are in America - advertizing should be directed to everybody who may travel the road - isn't that the American capitalist way.

 

I find it insulting to have a couple of people talking in their native tongue when I am suppose to be part of the conversation. It is rude - same thing if they didn't know English and we were speaking about them.  That is why we have interpreters available in several ways in Courts, at government offices, at the Social Security office.  We try to include them, they should give us the same courtesy.  English classes are one of the very 1st things that new immigrants (refugees) begin here.  Those coming in other ways - TPS / asylum - I don't know.

 

 


Well, I’d argue they “are” living the American capitalist dream. If they weren’t succeeding at business, they’d have to close shop. 

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Re: Truth Is In The Eye of the Beholder

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Message 5 of 39

@rker321 wrote:

@john258 wrote:

There seems to be a big push on language in this thread. There is a view that English has to be the only one as that is what all people who are citizens here speak, and that is the only acceptable one. Well if you live in the west there are quite a few Native Americans living here, and they were here before all others. They have their own language so there are many different languages spoken in the US beside English. Where I live Navajo is spoken along with about 4 other native American languages. We have Spanish spoken also. The Native American lands are sovereign lands in the US. They have their own laws, and governing bodies. The State Police in my State along with local police are cross sworn so they can operate on Native lands, and visa versa. There are no state courts on Native American lands, and State laws do not apply in most cases. State and County Taxes do not apply. They teach Navajo and Spanish in the schools, and you hear both spoken. English is the language that binds all the groups together and is spoken everywhere.

It would really be great if people would learn a subject before they want to make changes as sadly they really know little about the subject if they do not.


Again I disagree with you on  what you have posted. I raised my own children speaking two languages. an really pushing them to become bi lingual. as so many others that have come into this country.

English is the language of this country and to diminish the importance of not speaking English doesn't help with the assimilation of specially adults.

Working with many new immigrants, in this country and having to explain to  many when they got angry because  we didn't provide many legal documents and forms in Spanish that unfortunately the judges didn't speak Spanish and they were not required to do so. that courts had translators if they needed them.

English is the language of this country. and as I am sure that you have seen specially at the airports many signs in different languages are there to help  other.

But, it is my belief that we have gone overboard on this issue. and now, many things that should really be in English in order to help  with YES  with their own assimilation we have made it very easy for them to simply not    wanting or needing to speak English.

Today, even citizenship papers are given in several languages. whether you think that is a good practice or not. I will leave that up to you. But it really doesn't help many in learning the ways of their new country.


So you are saying that Native Americans should assimilate  by giving up their language, and customs. Should they also be forced to give up their sovereign lands to? They were here first so it might be the other way around. There is a lot of this country that was Spanish long before it was English. CA is one example plus most of the Southwestern States. By you that means the English speakers who settled there should have started speaking Spanish. All I can say to you is that you do not understand this country, and what you push is one reason we have problems.

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Re: Truth Is In The Eye of the Beholder

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Message 6 of 39

@ManicProgressive wrote:

Anecdotal only. My county is one third immigrant. Out of over a million people. We have all those neighborhoods and all those signs in foreign languages. Where I live, it’s mostly Chinese and South Asian immigrants because the school cluster is so good. The realtor who sells most homes is a Chinese immigrant and her sign is in Chinese.  Do you assume because of that, that she can’t speak English? Because she can. And I will use her when we get ready to sell our house.

 

My husband is an immigrant.  He has a thing for the Russian grocery stores.  When he goes in, they greet him in Russian and he responds by saying “hi.” They all immediately switch to English. Same with the Persian grocery, the Arabic grocery, the Asian grocery.  Well,they switch to English for me. My husband speaks Arabic and a good bit of Farsi so he just goes on with them in their native languages. The Indian grocery, however, has staff who always speaks English to me. Maybe because I’m white and obviously not south Asian. 

 

That article I posted says most immigrants come here knowing some English.  And i believe that. I often think Americans get wigged out by foreign languages because it’s not part of our culture to learn a second one.  But most non-English speaking countries across the globe are used to switching between languages to do business.  

 

And yes, if a group of immigrants are together and they speak a different common language, they often revert to that. One, it’s easier. Two, there are many nuanced meanings in different languages that people may want to convey that just don’t survive translation.  To me this brings a richness to the community. Definitely not a bad thing.  And, IMO, it’s an additional skill set, or cultural practice, that Americans need to adopt - being multilingual. The rest of the world is. We are getting left behind.  


I do not care if they want to continue their own language and culture - I have no problem there - my problem is that they are not opening up this market area to others - they need to at least have the translation available in English to market all their wares.  They are losing business otherwise.  This is a high traffic location - prime - like I said, it is wall to wall commercial. 

 

Having a sign out front in their native tongue doesn't tell others who may not know their language even what their business might be - in an area such as this, you don't just stop and walk in - too congested to park and browse and then reenter the major highway.

 

They are in America - advertizing should be directed to everybody who may travel the road - isn't that the American capitalist way.

 

I find it insulting to have a couple of people talking in their native tongue when I am suppose to be part of the conversation. It is rude - same thing if they didn't know English and we were speaking about them.  That is why we have interpreters available in several ways in Courts, at government offices, at the Social Security office.  We try to include them, they should give us the same courtesy.  English classes are one of the very 1st things that new immigrants (refugees) begin here.  Those coming in other ways - TPS / asylum - I don't know.

 

 

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Re: Truth Is In The Eye of the Beholder

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Message 7 of 39

Did my post required that you write a book about it?  flattered. but, there are things that do not pertain to me and that you reminded me .

and one was that I didn't come to this country in search of the American dream and now I am living it. I came here because I truly believed in a Democratic system. and as far as living that dream. 

Darling I became very poor the minute that I set foot in this country.  but loosing everything didn't detected me from loving more the freedoms that this country offered than the money that my family lost due to the Castro regime.

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Re: Truth Is In The Eye of the Beholder

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Message 8 of 39

@rker321 wrote:

@john258 wrote:

There seems to be a big push on language in this thread. There is a view that English has to be the only one as that is what all people who are citizens here speak, and that is the only acceptable one. Well if you live in the west there are quite a few Native Americans living here, and they were here before all others. They have their own language so there are many different languages spoken in the US beside English. Where I live Navajo is spoken along with about 4 other native American languages. We have Spanish spoken also. The Native American lands are sovereign lands in the US. They have their own laws, and governing bodies. The State Police in my State along with local police are cross sworn so they can operate on Native lands, and visa versa. There are no state courts on Native American lands, and State laws do not apply in most cases. State and County Taxes do not apply. They teach Navajo and Spanish in the schools, and you hear both spoken. English is the language that binds all the groups together and is spoken everywhere.

It would really be great if people would learn a subject before they want to make changes as sadly they really know little about the subject if they do not.


Again I disagree with you on  what you have posted. I raised my own children speaking two languages. an really pushing them to become bi lingual. as so many others that have come into this country.

English is the language of this country and to diminish the importance of not speaking English doesn't help with the assimilation of specially adults.

Working with many new immigrants, in this country and having to explain to  many when they got angry because  we didn't provide many legal documents and forms in Spanish that unfortunately the judges didn't speak Spanish and they were not required to do so. that courts had translators if they needed them.

English is the language of this country. and as I am sure that you have seen specially at the airports many signs in different languages are there to help  other.

But, it is my belief that we have gone overboard on this issue. and now, many things that should really be in English in order to help  with YES  with their own assimilation we have made it very easy for them to simply not    wanting or needing to speak English.

Today, even citizenship papers are given in several languages. whether you think that is a good practice or not. I will leave that up to you. But it really doesn't help many in learning the ways of their new country.


Are You Familiar with the Phrase .....................I Came - I Saw - I Conquered..........................??

 

How about - there is nothing worse than a Ex-smoker?

 

I Get it..........................you came to this Country - you Love it.............................apparently you are living the Immigrants American Dream

 

I'm not a Immigrant - I was Born here -

 

I'm not a Health Insurance Expert Either - but I'm a Consumer/Participant of Health Insurance - just like I'm a Consumer/Participant of American Politics - American Culture - American Society...............etc.

 

A person doesn't need to - Be Something - to have a Valid Opinion on something...................I don't need to be a Politician or a Doctor to have Valid Informed Opinions on Politics or Medicine 

 

There is a Reason Why the Statisitcs for the Last Year Available (2017) - show 12 Million Americans PURCHASED DNA Kits @ approx. $80 a pop

 

Most Americans Do Not Have Any Living Relatives who Immigrated & for some reason a Majority of Americans apparently have not lived in a Famly where their Heritage was a topic of Frequent Detailed Accurate Discussion -

 

Elizabeth Warrens situation is typical

 

It's therefore my opinion that Immigrants should be Encouraged not Discouraged from Practicing their Heritage Language Customs as long as they want - it's up to them if they want to assimilate and if so how quickly or completely

 

It's certainly their Life that is the most disadvantaged or not if they do not speak read or write English - the fact that the information others might need is available in mutiple languages in addition to English on Public Private instructions & announcement is not a VALID COMPLAINT

 

The Fact that it might make your Life or any other Americans life a little uncomfortable or INCONVIENIENCED is not a Valid Complaint -

 

Everything is available in the English Language in Countries where English is the predominant Language including in the USA

 

I've seen you raise the SPANISH Speaking Immigration issues in multiple threads - I don't know why that is but it certainly seems suspect - maybe you can explain why SPANISH Speaking Immigration Issues seems to be such a serious concern of yours - maybe it's just being addressed as a Common Issue you feel everyone is exposed too - I Don;t Know - but again it appears suspect

 

Again I use the DNA Testing as a example of how it at least appears - Americans know very little about their own Heritage

 

That makes me think - Immigrants Heritage is dilluted at a much faster rate than you think

 

That makes me think Again - that we should Encourage Immigrants to Slow Down their Assimilation regardless of how uncomfortable it makes other feel

 

I'm a American Patriot - A American Veteran of a Foreign War - I have absolutely No Issue with people living in My Country who cannot speak English or Fluently - I can't even Read Write or Speak it Accurately and I've been here my entire life

 

FYI

Culture Hunger

 

The desire to know our origins or to place ourselves within the history of a particular group speaks to a deeply human longing to belong to something clearly defined. In other words, maybe what we hope to derive from these tests is exactly what the commercials for them promise: a people, a place, and a tradition in a time that frequently offers us none of those.

 

In Notes Towards a Definition of Culture, T. S. Eliot defines culture as “that which makes life worth living.” This is a broad definition for a reason; culture has no singular characteristic. Rather, it contains all the things we might casually associate with the term: music, dance, stories, cuisine.

 

We can recognize distinct cultures throughout the world. In his own England, for example, Eliot said culture “includes all the characteristic activities and interests of a people: Derby Day, Henley Regatta, Cowes, the twelfth of August, a cup final, the dog races, the pin table, the dart board, Wensleydale cheese,” and more.

 

Culture, Eliot says, cannot be too homogenous, or it ceases to be identifiable. An ideal national culture, he says, consists of a variety of smaller cultures that conflict with and influence one another. One cannot imagine English literature without the influence of the Scots and the Welsh, for example. Of course, this requires knowing what Scottish culture, Welsh culture, and English culture look like, acknowledging that they are distinct, and accepting the distinctions as valuable.

 

These cultural markers are not mere curiosities; rather, they ground participants in that culture to a people and a heritage. Mark Mitchell argues in his essay “An Alternative to Cosmopolitanism”: “My relationships with cultural artifacts help to frame my understanding of myself and others. A particular language, a particular cuisine, a particular geography, climate, manners, stories, songs, metaphors—these all serve to make me who and how I am.” These things are, for Mitchell and Eliot, markers that show us where we belong in the world.

 

In a way, they are bulwarks against an identity crisis. When these things are present, we have no need to go searching for an identity, through DNA tests or otherwise. But when we prioritize personal freedom, broad concepts of cosmopolitanism, or “world citizenship,” and economic growth, we often sacrifice the things that make us distinctively us: we sacrifice our culture.

 

 

DNA.png

 

 

Source - https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610233/2017-was-the-year-consumer-dna-testing-blew-up/

 

https://home.isi.org/dna-tests

 

 

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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Message 9 of 39

@john258 wrote:

There seems to be a big push on language in this thread. There is a view that English has to be the only one as that is what all people who are citizens here speak, and that is the only acceptable one. Well if you live in the west there are quite a few Native Americans living here, and they were here before all others. They have their own language so there are many different languages spoken in the US beside English. Where I live Navajo is spoken along with about 4 other native American languages. We have Spanish spoken also. The Native American lands are sovereign lands in the US. They have their own laws, and governing bodies. The State Police in my State along with local police are cross sworn so they can operate on Native lands, and visa versa. There are no state courts on Native American lands, and State laws do not apply in most cases. State and County Taxes do not apply. They teach Navajo and Spanish in the schools, and you hear both spoken. English is the language that binds all the groups together and is spoken everywhere.

It would really be great if people would learn a subject before they want to make changes as sadly they really know little about the subject if they do not.


Again I disagree with you on  what you have posted. I raised my own children speaking two languages. an really pushing them to become bi lingual. as so many others that have come into this country.

English is the language of this country and to diminish the importance of not speaking English doesn't help with the assimilation of specially adults.

Working with many new immigrants, in this country and having to explain to  many when they got angry because  we didn't provide many legal documents and forms in Spanish that unfortunately the judges didn't speak Spanish and they were not required to do so. that courts had translators if they needed them.

English is the language of this country. and as I am sure that you have seen specially at the airports many signs in different languages are there to help  other.

But, it is my belief that we have gone overboard on this issue. and now, many things that should really be in English in order to help  with YES  with their own assimilation we have made it very easy for them to simply not    wanting or needing to speak English.

Today, even citizenship papers are given in several languages. whether you think that is a good practice or not. I will leave that up to you. But it really doesn't help many in learning the ways of their new country.

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Message 10 of 39

Anecdotal only. My county is one third immigrant. Out of over a million people. We have all those neighborhoods and all those signs in foreign languages. Where I live, it’s mostly Chinese and South Asian immigrants because the school cluster is so good. The realtor who sells most homes is a Chinese immigrant and her sign is in Chinese.  Do you assume because of that, that she can’t speak English? Because she can. And I will use her when we get ready to sell our house.

 

My husband is an immigrant.  He has a thing for the Russian grocery stores.  When he goes in, they greet him in Russian and he responds by saying “hi.” They all immediately switch to English. Same with the Persian grocery, the Arabic grocery, the Asian grocery.  Well,they switch to English for me. My husband speaks Arabic and a good bit of Farsi so he just goes on with them in their native languages. The Indian grocery, however, has staff who always speaks English to me. Maybe because I’m white and obviously not south Asian. 

 

That article I posted says most immigrants come here knowing some English.  And i believe that. I often think Americans get wigged out by foreign languages because it’s not part of our culture to learn a second one.  But most non-English speaking countries across the globe are used to switching between languages to do business.  

 

And yes, if a group of immigrants are together and they speak a different common language, they often revert to that. One, it’s easier. Two, there are many nuanced meanings in different languages that people may want to convey that just don’t survive translation.  To me this brings a richness to the community. Definitely not a bad thing.  And, IMO, it’s an additional skill set, or cultural practice, that Americans need to adopt - being multilingual. The rest of the world is. We are getting left behind.  

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