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Re: Trump Corporate Tax Cuts: Billions in Profits, Zero in Taxes

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Message 11 of 29

From the other discussion - - -

 

"Value added" - That's the problem. They are undervalued! I believe that is the #1 complaint among college grads. The jobs aren't paying what the degree is worth. Of course, there are a few exceptions, like technology, engineering, etc. that tend to start at higher levels.

I can understand their feelings - they have a lot of time, work, and money tied up in their degree. But the employer has to look at it from the perspective of the value they add to the product of service being sold.

 

But then look at what teachers are paid, and not only do they start at a low income level, they seldom ever get much in the way of a raise (until they go on strike!). It is one reason so many have left teaching for professional education or other work. Many of today's students have no reason to pursue a teaching career because it doesn't pay well. Students know what degrees are going to get them a job, and which degrees will offer the most opportunity. 

Teachers are civil servants - so there is no product being sold. I agree that they are under-valued but it is a different situation from the private sector.

 

Jobs created by the improved economy? Maybe the jobs are there but tax revenues are not, as the deficit rises. We're at full employment, and the status of the "47%'ers" that you like mention, has not changed.  If it has: Show me the data!

You're right, the economy has improved but their ability to contribute to the value of the product hasn't. So, they do not "move up".

 

See above comments.

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Re: Trump Corporate Tax Cuts: Billions in Profits, Zero in Taxes

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Message 12 of 29


To your points above:

  • Jobs created - yes, they were, but apparently not the jobs that will produce the amount of taxes that will pay for the tax cuts. Tax cuts never pay for themselves, without spending cuts to offset. That is proven economics. And the deficit rises, along with the national debt . . . seems no worry to Trump. He's the king of debt, after all. My how R's have changed their attitude toward debt!
  • Subsidies - Isn't that picking winners and losers? I think a better approach would be low cost loans, deferred taxes, maybe accelerated depreciation in certain areas (but not one year!), and other tools to encourage investment and development, especially in the area of green energy, green technologies, lowering carbon emissions, and reducing the carbon footprint. Reward the good and tax the polluters since we will eventually have to pay to clean up after them.
  • R's here complain about the "47%-ers" and have no answers as to how to improve their situation. How can you say that they have not added value to their employers who are clearly raking in the profits from their labors? Where would those employers be without them? Perhaps more investment in education would be a good place to start. Employers could do that on their own. Mine did when I worked, and many still do. I assume it's 100% tax write-off. That's okay with me. Some tax write-offs are beneficial to both employer and employee, as well as the company and the consumer. I think we need to look at write-off loopholes that only serve the purpose of tax avoidance and get rid of them.

With the millions and billions in pure profit that these large corporations are raking in, they can pay taxes, increase wages, pay their shareholders, and still have tons of money left over for reinvestment. 

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Re: Trump Corporate Tax Cuts: Billions in Profits, Zero in Taxes

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Message 13 of 29

@MaVolta wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@MaVolta wrote:


Technically correct if the only source of income is what the consumer pays for goods and services, then taxes would come out of any profit realized by company from those sales. This is likely the case with most small to medium size businesses. But that's not really how it works. What the consumer pays is based on cost of goods sold plus markup, and markup is driven by factors other than overhead, like competition.

Yes, but the intake from the consumer is the source of the money they use to pay the taxes.

 

But with these corporate giants, that is not the case. They have more sources of income than just the consumer. So no, what they charge the consumer for goods and services has nothing to do with whether they pay taxes or not. They still rake in profits, have zero tax liability on the balance sheet, and have revenue from tax credits on the income statement.

I didn't say what they charged had anything to do with their taxes - except as the source of funding. You mention income other than from the consumer - what are you referring to?

INVESTORS

True. But generally investors do not pay operating expenses such a taxes. They usually are investing in expansion. But you're right, they do put money in.

 

For many years, the largest corporations have had a free, or near free ride because of numerous tax credits and other legal tax avoidance loopholes, subsidies, stock options, accelerated depreciation, and under Trump, super accelerated one-year depreciation. What's not to love if you're feasting at the top of the food chain?

This is true and "for many years" kinda disputes the topic title. If an acceleration accelerated the economy and created jobs, I believe that's a good thing.

They already had a good deal. Under the Trump tax cuts, it exploded. Even more companies, with higher profits and zero taxes, and now huge refunds to boot. Go back to the article I posted. 

True - it exploded and many more jobs were created. That was the intent.

 

What happened to expanding the tax base? As you mentioned, 47% pay little or no taxes, because their earnings are too low. Yes, they are employed, but all of the money stays at the top, it doesn't help the average wage earner. Once again, a repeat of what we learned in the 80's, that trickle down economics is bogus economics.

It helped only to the extent that it created jobs that didn't previously did not exist and I have no reason to think they were all "bottom rung".

You still have your 47%ers.

And we always will.

 

It's time to end corporate welfare, and I will vote accordingly.

 

What plans or programs would you vote for that would effect in income of those on the bottom? Increasing the minimum wage tends to reduce jobs and create inflation - not a great benefit to the 47%.


I'm in favor of closing tax loopholes, ending subsidies, taxing foreign investment, perhaps lowering the corporate tax rate to 15%, same as capital gains (I think). Even at 10%, it's more than they currently pay. There are considerations for reinvestment and of course depreciation and maybe deferred taxes at a lower rate.  Perhaps an incentive to get more of the profit into worker's paychecks, which is the real driver of the economy. If workers don't have enough money to spend, well you know what happens. I do believe the tax rate could be raised on individuals with millions and billions in income. What rate - I don't know - but higher than it is now. I might be in favor of a carbon tax which is being floated. What is certain is that companies need to reward their workers at a better rate than they are now. 

I can't disagree about loopholes but the term is highly subject to interpretation. Ending subsidies - what about a subsidy that creates jobs and has the probability of making it on it's own soon? I don't know why foreign investments are not taxed so I can't comment. i just can't see how increasing the taxes a company pays can increase workers' pay - tax incentives might be worth looking into.

companies need to reward their workers at a better rate than they are now - you do that via government action?

 

I also found this (economics made simple for people like me). 

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-economic-growth-3306014

 


 


 

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Re: Trump Corporate Tax Cuts: Billions in Profits, Zero in Taxes

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Message 14 of 29

@rk9152 wrote:

@MaVolta wrote:


Technically correct if the only source of income is what the consumer pays for goods and services, then taxes would come out of any profit realized by company from those sales. This is likely the case with most small to medium size businesses. But that's not really how it works. What the consumer pays is based on cost of goods sold plus markup, and markup is driven by factors other than overhead, like competition.

Yes, but the intake from the consumer is the source of the money they use to pay the taxes.

 

But with these corporate giants, that is not the case. They have more sources of income than just the consumer. So no, what they charge the consumer for goods and services has nothing to do with whether they pay taxes or not. They still rake in profits, have zero tax liability on the balance sheet, and have revenue from tax credits on the income statement.

I didn't say what they charged had anything to do with their taxes - except as the source of funding. You mention income other than from the consumer - what are you referring to?

INVESTORS

 

For many years, the largest corporations have had a free, or near free ride because of numerous tax credits and other legal tax avoidance loopholes, subsidies, stock options, accelerated depreciation, and under Trump, super accelerated one-year depreciation. What's not to love if you're feasting at the top of the food chain?

This is true and "for many years" kinda disputes the topic title. If an acceleration accelerated the economy and created jobs, I believe that's a good thing.

They already had a good deal. Under the Trump tax cuts, it exploded. Even more companies, with higher profits and zero taxes, and now huge refunds to boot. Go back to the article I posted.

 

What happened to expanding the tax base? As you mentioned, 47% pay little or no taxes, because their earnings are too low. Yes, they are employed, but all of the money stays at the top, it doesn't help the average wage earner. Once again, a repeat of what we learned in the 80's, that trickle down economics is bogus economics.

It helped only to the extent that it created jobs that didn't previously did not exist and I have no reason to think they were all "bottom rung".

You still have your 47%ers.

 

It's time to end corporate welfare, and I will vote accordingly.

 

What plans or programs would you vote for that would effect in income of those on the bottom? Increasing the minimum wage tends to reduce jobs and create inflation - not a great benefit to the 47%.


I'm in favor of closing tax loopholes, ending subsidies, taxing foreign investment, perhaps lowering the corporate tax rate to 15%, same as capital gains (I think). Even at 10%, it's more than they currently pay. There are considerations for reinvestment and of course depreciation and maybe deferred taxes at a lower rate.  Perhaps an incentive to get more of the profit into worker's paychecks, which is the real driver of the economy. If workers don't have enough money to spend, well you know what happens. I do believe the tax rate could be raised on individuals with millions and billions in income. What rate - I don't know - but higher than it is now. I might be in favor of a carbon tax which is being floated. What is certain is that companies need to reward their workers at a better rate than they are now. 

 

I also found this (economics made simple for people like me). 

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-economic-growth-3306014

 


 

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Re: Trump Corporate Tax Cuts: Billions in Profits, Zero in Taxes

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Message 15 of 29

@MaVolta wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

MaVolta -  In your theory, that corporations are collecting taxes from the consumer,

Not exactly - i said any taxes paid by companies is collected from the consumer. Do you disagree with that??


Technically correct if the only source of income is what the consumer pays for goods and services, then taxes would come out of any profit realized by company from those sales. This is likely the case with most small to medium size businesses. But that's not really how it works. What the consumer pays is based on cost of goods sold plus markup, and markup is driven by factors other than overhead, like competition.

Yes, but the intake from the consumer is the source of the money they use to pay the taxes.

 

But with these corporate giants, that is not the case. They have more sources of income than just the consumer. So no, what they charge the consumer for goods and services has nothing to do with whether they pay taxes or not. They still rake in profits, have zero tax liability on the balance sheet, and have revenue from tax credits on the income statement.

I didn't say what they charged had anything to do with their taxes - except as the source of funding. You mention income other than from the consumer - what are you referring to?

 

For many years, the largest corporations have had a free, or near free ride because of numerous tax credits and other legal tax avoidance loopholes, subsidies, stock options, accelerated depreciation, and under Trump, super accelerated one-year depreciation. What's not to love if you're feasting at the top of the food chain?

This is true and "for many years" kinda disputes the topic title. If an acceleration accelerated the economy and created jobs, I believe that's a good thing.

 

What happened to expanding the tax base? As you mentioned, 47% pay little or no taxes, because their earnings are too low. Yes, they are employed, but all of the money stays at the top, it doesn't help the average wage earner. Once again, a repeat of what we learned in the 80's, that trickle down economics is bogus economics.

It helped only to the extent that it created jobs that didn't previously did not exist and I have no reason to think they were all "bottom rung".

It's time to end corporate welfare, and I will vote accordingly.

 

What plans or programs would you vote for that would effect in income of those on the bottom? Increasing the minimum wage tends to reduce jobs and create inflation - not a great benefit to the 47%.


 

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Re: Trump Corporate Tax Cuts: Billions in Profits, Zero in Taxes

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Message 16 of 29

@rk9152 wrote:

MaVolta -  In your theory, that corporations are collecting taxes from the consumer,

Not exactly - i said any taxes paid by companies is collected from the consumer. Do you disagree with that??


Technically correct if the only source of income is what the consumer pays for goods and services, then taxes would come out of any profit realized by company from those sales. This is likely the case with most small to medium size businesses. But that's not really how it works. What the consumer pays is based on cost of goods sold plus markup, and markup is driven by factors other than overhead, like competition.

 

But with these corporate giants, that is not the case. They have more sources of income than just the consumer. So no, what they charge the consumer for goods and services has nothing to do with whether they pay taxes or not. They still rake in profits, have zero tax liability on the balance sheet, and have revenue from tax credits on the income statement.

 

For many years, the largest corporations have had a free, or near free ride because of numerous tax credits and other legal tax avoidance loopholes, subsidies, stock options, accelerated depreciation, and under Trump, super accelerated one-year depreciation. What's not to love if you're feasting at the top of the food chain?

 

What happened to expanding the tax base? As you mentioned, 47% pay little or no taxes, because their earnings are too low. Yes, they are employed, but all of the money stays at the top, it doesn't help the average wage earner. Once again, a repeat of what we learned in the 80's, that trickle down economics is bogus economics.

 

It's time to end corporate welfare, and I will vote accordingly.

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Re: Trump Corporate Tax Cuts: Billions in Profits, Zero in Taxes

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Message 17 of 29

MaVolta -  In your theory, that corporations are collecting taxes from the consumer,

Not exactly - i said any taxes paid by companies is collected from the consumer. Do you disagree with that??

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Re: Trump Corporate Tax Cuts: Billions in Profits, Zero in Taxes

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Message 18 of 29

Economics 101 (for liberals) - As corporations make more money, more employees are needed, resulting in (long term) increases in tax revenue despite tax decreases. Of course those that don't want to work will have to wait until Democrats take over and give them guaranteed income for life.

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Re: Trump Corporate Tax Cuts: Billions in Profits, Zero in Taxes

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Message 19 of 29

@rk9152 wrote:

@MaVolta wrote:


I pay Amazon and . . .

 

  • The retail giant Amazon reported $11 billion of U.S. income and claimed a federal income tax rebate of $129 million.
  • Amazon reduced its income taxes by more than $1 billion in 2018 using a tax break for stock options. A June 2016 Citizens for Tax Justice report found that 315 companies in the Fortune 500 disclosed receiving benefits from this tax break, which allows companies to write off stock-option related expenses in excess of the cost they reported to shareholders and the public. Source:    https://itep.org/notadime/

They make billions in profit, and get millions back, to boot. Such a deal!  

 

They aren't collecting money from me to pay taxes. They are lining a lot of wealthy pockets and pay nothing in taxes.

 


Do you envision a system in which the government allocates salaries and profits? A fella named Mussolini tried that.


Amazon (and the rest) can do whatever they like with their profits, AFTER they pay taxes. In your theory, that corporations are collecting taxes from the consumer, I'd say Amazon owes its customers a healthy 'refund' like the one they got. But instead of lowering prices, Amazon just raised the membership rate of Prime, and a healthy raise at that. No thank you, Mr Bezos. Amazon is a convenience, not a necessity. 

 

I want the tax laws fixed, loop holes closed, and corporations (equal to people per SCOTUS) pay their fair share of taxes. I plan to vote accordingly.

 

Of course, the real story is here: Buying Influence

Federal records show that Amazon.com Inc. lobbied more government entities than any other tech company in 2018 and sought to exert its influence over more issues than any of its tech peers except Alphabet Inc.’s Google. Last year, Amazon spent $14.2 million on lobbying, a record for the company, up from its previous high mark of $12.8 million in 2017. The $77 million that the nine tech companies in the charts below spent in 2018 to lobby Washington looks minuscule next to the $280 million spent by pharmaceutical and health-care products companies. Tech has, however, pulled ahead of the $64 million that commercial banks spent—and Amazon in particular has a cachet that allows it to punch above its weight at times. Of the nine, only the $21 million Google spent on lobbyingbeat Amazon’s total. Since 2012, Amazon has ramped up spending by more than 460 percent—much faster than its rivals.

WHY?

One of Amazon’s priorities is to persuade federal agencies to rent Amazon’s vast cloud computing services rather than maintain their own. (Amazon then bids for the work through the federal procurement process.) The company also wants to power a planned, governmentwide e-commerce portal for official purchases of everything from office furniture to paper clips—a $50 billion market.

Source:

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-amazon-lobbying/

 

So no taxes, expanded market with huge gov contract, $billions if not $trillions, and more money to spend on lobbying for more money. Bezos should pay me to read WAPO!

 

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Re: Trump Corporate Tax Cuts: Billions in Profits, Zero in Taxes

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Message 20 of 29

@mandm84 wrote:

9152 says Do you envision a system in which the government allocates salaries and profits? A fella named Mussolini tried that.

-------------------

No a system where Billionaires pay "Some" Federal Tax to pay for the Luxuries and Protections they live in !!


Well, the situation you describe is not new so this topic does not address that. The Trump tax cuts were intended to boost the economy and they did. I'd call that "a good thing" wouldn't you?

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