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Re: Trump Advocates Fossil Fuels, U.S. Scientists Sound Alarm On Melting Arctic

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Oh My, the RW threw up a distraction - what about Antartica.    Well, gee whiz, thanks for asking, because it has been in the headlines.   Here is a KISS for them:  https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-find-melting-of-antarctic-ice-sheet-accelerati...

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Re: Trump Advocates Fossil Fuels, U.S. Scientists Sound Alarm On Melting Arctic

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@MIseker wrote:

Exactly Chas. NH didnt read the entire article.  I have posted it below. Once again a Trumper uses evidence that disproves their intent. So too with the comments I have added at the end of the article. THANKS NH FOR THIS FIND!!!!!

(I had to edit out some comments due to size restriction.. both positive and negative)

 

 

 

 


Great post Mlseker. There is so much information available to prove the effects of global warming that is can't all be posted here. Frankly, I think it is over many trump supporters' heads, or they just don't read enough about it. Believing that the floating ice around the South Pole means that the South Pole is growing is an example. They either haven't read all of the data and information about the ice melts or they ignore or don't understand all of it. Not reading an entire article will cause all kinds of confusion. Doing so with many informational articles will leave a person uninformed. Disbelief among trump supporters prevails, disbelief of the truth.


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
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Re: Trump Advocates Fossil Fuels, U.S. Scientists Sound Alarm On Melting Arctic

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Exactly Chas. NH didnt read the entire article.  I have posted it below. Once again a Trumper uses evidence that disproves their intent. So too with the comments I have added at the end of the article. THANKS NH FOR THIS FIND!!!!!

(I had to edit out some comments due to size restriction.. both positive and negative)

 

You might reasonably suspect that all the fuss about disappearing Arctic sea ice is overblown, then, given the growth of ice down south.

But you’d be wrong, for all sorts of reasons

The first is that the 1 percent growth per decade in the Antarctic pales next to the much faster 15.5 percent drop per decade in the Arctic. They aren’t even in the same ballpark. Not only that: while the sea ice bordering Antarctica has been growing slightly, the massive ice sheets that sit directly atop the frozen continent are shrinking, at an accelerating rate, with worrisome implications for global sea level rise.

The disparity is even more dramatic when you realize that most of the sea ice surrounding Antarctica drifts away during the summer to melt in warmer waters, and reforms anew in the winter. The Antarctic sea ice cover is nearly all first-year ice, which is typically 3 to 6 feet thick. In the Arctic, by contrast, the ice is hemmed in by Canada, Alaska, Russia and Greenland. It mostly can’t drift away, so whatever is left behind at the end of summer gets even thicker the following winter.

That multi-year ice, which can be up to 15 feet thick and is much harder to melt, dominated the Arctic Ocean when satellites first went into orbit back in 1979. If you look at the volume of ice rather than just the area it covers, the disparity between the Arctic ice loss and Antarctic ice gain is just that much more impressive.

Still, if the planet is warming, how can the sea ice be expanding in the waters surrounding Antarctica in the first place? Keeping in mind that it isn’t expanding by much, scientists offer several possible explanations. One is that there’s been more precipitation in recent decades (which itself could well be due to global warming). That puts a cap of relatively fresh water atop the denser, saltier water below, and in winter, when that top layer cools, it stays on top rather than mixing with the warmer water underneath, thus encouraging the growth of ice.



Another factor may be the ozone hole that opens up at this time every year over the South Pole. Ozone loss tends to cool the upper atmosphere — an effect that percolates down to the surface.

Still another factor is purely natural climate variation, which is still happening even though manmade global warming has a growing influence on every aspect of the Earth’s climate system with every passing decade.

In any case, climate scientists have long expected that the Arctic would warm up faster than the Antarctic. After all, the former is an ocean surrounded by land, while the latter is land surrounded by ocean. Wind patterns, weather systems and ocean currents behave differently at the two poles. And because the coldest part of the Antarctic is land, the ice there has been able to accumulate into a giant ice cube the size of a continent and up to two miles thick — which tends to hold back local warming considerably.

By the second half of the century, however, climatologists say that the human warming signal will become more apparent, and Antarctic sea ice will begin to follow its Arctic cousin in a downward spiral. That, in turn, could speed up melting of the all-important Antarctic land ice, thereby raising global sea levels.

Related Content 
Study Finds Ice Sheets Becoming Dominant Contributor to Sea Level Rise 
The Bad News Continues to Flow About Antarctica's Ice  << NH is this in support of your denial?

Comments

By Todd Russell (Des Moines, IA 50324)
on September 22nd, 2012

Thank you for the article.

I wish more people would learn some of the science behind Global Warming.  There is an excellent website where interested people can learn about The Discovery of Global Warming.  It was created by Spencer Weart.  You can find the site here: http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.htm

This is from his chapter on the Modern Temperature Trend:

Talk radio callers and right-leaning columnists continued to exclaim about one or another unusually cold winter in this or that locality. They pointed out that some regions showed no warming at all, notably the massive Antarctic ice sheet. This was no surprise, but an effect predicted as far back as 1981 by Stephen Schneider and a collaborator. Noting that the Southern Hemisphere was mostly ocean, which would tend to take up heat and delay the rise of atmospheric temperature in the region, they had warned that people “may still be misled… in the decade A.D. 2000-2010” by cool weather there. (It turned out, however, that this and later computer studies were too conservative: in the 2000s, regions around Antarctica began to show a bit of warming and significant loss of ice.) 

Quite a prediction from over 20 years ago.

 

By Rudy Haugeneder, Canada (Victoria, BC, Canada)
on September 22nd, 2012

The problem with the pace of man-caused Climate Change is that it is happening slowly enough to simply become part of the new normal—a changing baselines—that the public meekly accepts.
That, unfortunately, is the way it is, meaning nothing of real consequence towards halting Climate Change will occur until after it becomes totally obvious that the threshold was long ago passed.

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By Doug Brockman 
on September 22nd, 2012

I guess I should worry about the climate change and the coming dearth of polar bears.

But the last one we ate was pretty tough.

Plus, the livers are rather toxic.

So I doubt I will miss them too much.

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By Clive Mitchell 
on September 23rd, 2012

Is warming measured by temperature? But in a sea-ice situation, the temperature remains almost constant - more heat means less ice, less heat means more ice.

If there is less heat and the water is all frozen, the ice temperature will go down. (Is anyone measuring the Antarctic ice sheet temperature?) If there is more heat until the sea ice is all gone, then the temperature will rise dramatically.

It seems that 2012 left enough energy in the system to melt a net 900 cubic kilometres of ice in the Arctic. Melting 900 cubic kilometre of ice into about 825 km3 water requires enough energy to raise around 65,000 cubic kilometres of (pure) water by 1 degree C. Dividing by the area of the Arctic Ocean gives enough energy to warm the top 4m by 1 degree C. Since it’s sea water, say a couple of metres in one year. Then the heat has to go somewhere else before the same happens the next year.

With around 3500 cubic km left this summer, if the net volume loss continues then the above scenario will take place within four years, without taking decreasing albedo into account.

Assumes PIOMAS data correct. The above model is called rule-of-thumb.

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By Stephen MacLean (Anchorage, Alaska 99518 )
on September 23rd, 2012

This article misses the point altogether.  It compares the MAXIMUM (end of winter) extent of seasonal ice in the Antarctic to the MINIMUM (end of summer) extent of sea ice in the Arctic basin.  The seasonal ice around Antarctica largely disappears each southern summer.  The Arctic basin used to be dominated by multi-year ice that remained through the summer.  Now, the multi-year ice is mostly flushed out of the Arctic basin, leaving one-year ice that does not last the summer and, viola, the Arctic basin becomes much more free of ice and open to transport through the Northwest and Northeast Passages, and much more absorptive rather than reflective of radiation.  So let’s stop making this silly non-comparison!

 

 

By Erax 
on September 24th, 2012

It’s amazing how you can take a swipe at ‘Talk radio callers and right-leaning columnists,’ while ignoring ‘left leaning’ people such as Al Gore and James Lovelock who were equally wrong. And surely you know they’re all after audience?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2134092/Gaia-scientist-James-Lovelock-I-alarmist-climate-cha...

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By Jean SIREYJOL (Bordeaux France)
on September 24th, 2012

Sorry, but the headline is completly confusing, because it will be used by basic climate negationist. These people don’t mind that the content of the article explains that the headline is wrong.
Whatever. The headline will have done its job; creating confusion, while the global warming evidence is crystal clear.

 

 
 
 

By Ryan Maue (Atlanta GA 30346)
on October 15th, 2012

How does the austral spring ozone hole formation due to sunlight matter to winter sea-ice extent?

Ozone is a factor in Antarctic climate but how does that translate to when the sun is not shining?

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By mlemonick 
on October 15th, 2012

Ryan Maue asks an excellent question. The ozone hole does open up in the austral spring, yet sea ice growth happens during the austral winter. But while the ozone does recover in winter, it doesn’t recover fully. Here’s a link to an explanation posted at the National Snow and Ice Data Center website (you have to scroll down to get to the Antarctic part)

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/2012/10/poles-apart-a-record-breaking-summer-and-winter/

 

 

 

By Rodolfo Werner (Bariloche, Rio Negro, 8400)
on March 24th, 2013

I am amazed about some folks could be blind to the human made effects on our climate…and the impact on the melting of the sea ice in the Poles. Independently of the slight increase in “the overall” sea ice in Antarctica. It is important to emphasize the word “overall” since that word is misleading when one looks at the real effects on the sea ice in Antarctica.  While this could be true (the increase in sea ice) in some areas of the Antarctica, the situation of the area West to the Antarctic Peninsula is very different and dramatic. This area is one of the areas where the temperature has been increasing much more then in other areas of the planet, with the consequence of a large retreat in sea ice (in time and space; that is less sea ice and in a shorter period of time). This reduction on sea ice has strong implications on the spawning of Antarctic krill…that is, this has lead to a reduction in krill availability in this area. And it is important that Antarctic krill is the keystone species for the Antarctic food web. Parallel to this reduction of sea ice in the Antarctic Peninsula area (and also the shrinking of glaciers in this area) we are experimenting an important decrease in the population numbers of Adelie and chinstrap penguin in this area over the 30 years.  Thus, this information about a general increase in sea ice in Antarctica has to be analyzed in more detail.  And please, folks stop denying the existence of climate change induced by man made causes…

 

 

 

So it begins.
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Re: Trump Advocates Fossil Fuels, U.S. Scientists Sound Alarm On Melting Arctic

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@ChasKy53 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

All the talk about the Arctic because that ice is diminishing while the left never talks about the Antarctic.  Why?

 

The sea ice that covers the Arctic Ocean has plummeted to its lowest level on record — but down at the other end of the world, the sea ice surrounding Antarctica has swelled. That’s no surprise, considering that winter is just ending in the Southern Hemisphere — but what may be surprising is that the overall extent of Antarctic ice has grown by about 1 percent per decade, on average, since satellite records began a little over 30 years ago.

You might reasonably suspect that all the fuss about disappearing Arctic sea ice is overblown, then, given the growth of ice down south.

 

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/forget-the-melting-arctic-the-sea-ice-in-antarctica-is-growing-sk...


The ice isn't anywhere near as thick as it was at the South pole, you left that out. Global warming/Climate Change has cause currents to push water southward where the cold freezes it, but it is mostly surface ice. The giant icebergs and the icecaps are melting, a reality that you can't change.

 

What do you think about the kind of company we keep with Russia, the Saudis and Kuwait?  The only three countries in the world against addressing Climate Change and we side with them. Greed makes strange bedfellows.


You can "address it" all you want and even make draconian decisions (mandate lower thermostat settings in winter, mandate no fossil fuel use) based on "Climate Change" but I don't think you will make any appreciable change in the climate.  That is just my opinion and I haven't heard any "experts" convince me that the climate IS changeable.

 

When I see the left demanding that all private planes be banned, that will be cause for concern (to them) and more people will listen.

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Re: Trump Advocates Fossil Fuels, U.S. Scientists Sound Alarm On Melting Arctic

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@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

All the talk about the Arctic because that ice is diminishing while the left never talks about the Antarctic.  Why?

 

The sea ice that covers the Arctic Ocean has plummeted to its lowest level on record — but down at the other end of the world, the sea ice surrounding Antarctica has swelled. That’s no surprise, considering that winter is just ending in the Southern Hemisphere — but what may be surprising is that the overall extent of Antarctic ice has grown by about 1 percent per decade, on average, since satellite records began a little over 30 years ago.

You might reasonably suspect that all the fuss about disappearing Arctic sea ice is overblown, then, given the growth of ice down south.

 

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/forget-the-melting-arctic-the-sea-ice-in-antarctica-is-growing-sk...


The ice isn't anywhere near as thick as it was at the South pole, you left that out. Global warming/Climate Change has cause currents to push water southward where the cold freezes it, but it is mostly surface ice. The giant icebergs and the icecaps are melting, a reality that you can't change.

 

What do you think about the kind of company we keep with Russia, the Saudis and Kuwait?  The only three countries in the world against addressing Climate Change and we side with them. Greed makes strange bedfellows.


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
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Re: Trump Advocates Fossil Fuels, U.S. Scientists Sound Alarm On Melting Arctic

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All the talk about the Arctic because that ice is diminishing while the left never talks about the Antarctic.  Why?

 

The sea ice that covers the Arctic Ocean has plummeted to its lowest level on record — but down at the other end of the world, the sea ice surrounding Antarctica has swelled. That’s no surprise, considering that winter is just ending in the Southern Hemisphere — but what may be surprising is that the overall extent of Antarctic ice has grown by about 1 percent per decade, on average, since satellite records began a little over 30 years ago.

You might reasonably suspect that all the fuss about disappearing Arctic sea ice is overblown, then, given the growth of ice down south.

 

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/forget-the-melting-arctic-the-sea-ice-in-antarctica-is-growing-sk...

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Re: Trump Advocates Fossil Fuels, U.S. Scientists Sound Alarm On Melting Arctic

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The cause of the resistance to switching to renewable energy lies in the following paragraph, taken from the article:

 

Over the weekend, the U.S. joined Russia, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait as the only countries that declined to “welcome” an international report on the destructive fallout that will occur if temperature increases can't be limited to 1.5 degrees Celsius over pre-Industrial levels. All four nations export oil, and the report called for fossil fuels to be phased out by 2050.

 

For the oil producing nations it is greed and profits over the well being of the world. Renewable energy can fuel the world and America should take the lead. We need a leader who will lead, not follow nations like Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait. What company we keep .........


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Trump Advocates Fossil Fuels, U.S. Scientists Sound Alarm On Melting Arctic

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Trump team advocates burning fossil fuels, even as U.S. scientists sound alarm on melting Arctic
“The Arctic is shouting that something needs to be done," said Rafe Pomerance, chairman of Arctic 21.
Image: Protesters call for political and economic reforms to combat climate change during the United Nations Summit on Climate Change (COP24) in Katowice, Poland, on Dec. 8, 2018.
Protesters call for political and economic reforms to combat climate change during the United Nations Summit on Climate Change (COP24) in Katowice, Poland, on Dec. 8, 2018.Martyn Aim / Getty Images
 
Dec. 11, 2018 / 8:39 PM CST
By James Rainey

 

The Trump administration continued its rejection of mainstream climate science — and embraced Earth-warming fossil fuels — in the second week of the United Nations climate conference in Poland. Those contrarian views emerged even as U.S. government scientists on Tuesday reported that humanity’s actions are driving up temperatures rapidly, with devastating impacts for the Arctic and the rest of the globe.

Negotiations continued this week among diplomats from 200 nations in the industrial city of Katowice, trying to reach an agreement in which countries commit to greater reductions of greenhouse gases. The U.S. is party to those talks behind closed doors, even as Trump and his representatives question the scientific consensus on global warming.

 
 

Over the weekend, the U.S. joined Russia, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait as the only countries that declined to “welcome” an international report on the destructive fallout that will occur if temperature increases can't be limited to 1.5 degrees Celsius over pre-Industrial levels. All four nations export oil, and the report called for fossil fuels to be phased out by 2050.

 
 
00:47 / 00:47
 

America further divorced itself from most other nations on Monday, when it held a panel at the climate talks promoting the long-term burning of coal and natural gas. U.S. officials argued that the carbon fuels are necessary because renewable sources will not provide enough electric power in the short run.

Protesters temporarily stopped the pro-fossil fuel panel with calls of “Shame!” and “Keep it in the ground!”

Image: NASA Continues Efforts To Monitor Arctic Ice Loss With Research Flights Over Greenland and CanadaSea ice is seen from NASA's Operation IceBridge research aircraft on March 29, 2017 above Ellesmere Island, Canada.Mario Tama / Getty Images

The controversy erupted in Poland the day before the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) released a “report card” summarizing “new and rapidly emerging threats” driven by warming in the Arctic. Among the observations in the report:

 

•Temperatures in the Arctic are increasing at twice the rate of the rest of the globe.

•Sheet ice continues to decline in Greenland and the rest of the Arctic, where it is thinner and covers less area than in the past.

•Caribou population dipped, in a two-decade decline that has cut herds nearly in half.

The impacts might be easy to ignore if they were confined to the Arctic. But the warming of air in the north has disrupted the high-atmosphere jet stream that guides weather systems in the Northern Hemisphere. The result has been “wavier” and slower weather patterns — exacerbating drought, heat waves and wildfires across western North America, while bringing unseasonably cold weather to the Southeast, the report card says.

 

“There is less reflectivity from the Arctic, so the planet gets warmer and sea levels rise,” said Rafe Pomerance, chairman of Arctic 21, a network of groups focused on the Arctic and climate change. “The Arctic is shouting that something needs to be done…. But, at the same time, you see the U.S., in particular, lacking direction and political will.”

 

More at Link:

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-team-advocates-burning-fossil-fuels-even-u-s-scientists-n...


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