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Re: This is UR President U Must Be So Proud 2b American

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Message 1 of 53

MaVolta - there appears to be some grousing (again) about our discussion. I'm willing to continue - I'll leave it up to you.

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Re: This is UR President U Must Be So Proud 2b American

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Message 2 of 53

@rk9152  - you're off topic again...

The rabid capitalism/fascism/anti-marxism/anti-socialism thread is elsewhere...

It's not this one...

 

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Re: This is UR President U Must Be So Proud 2b American

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Message 3 of 53

@MaVolta wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@MaVolta wrote:


Well one might think so. We have what economists consider full employment. And yet, as you mentioned, there are the 47% who pay little or no taxes. Why is that? All that money, all that profit, yet the little guy at the lower end of the economy is barely making ends meet. All that tax free money didn't give the little guy a raise, or enough of a raise to keep pace with inflation.

 

No, that tax free money it went to the top echelon and stock options for the wealthy, millions paid to lobbyists, and millions poured into political campaigns. That's where the money goes. Nor does it affect any change in lowering the cost of consumer products. They calculate that differently.

This issue of low paying jobs comes up regularly here Meanwhile, college grads cannot get an opening level position that will pay enough to make any dent in downpaying the massive student debt they have accummulated for 4 years or more.


The issue of low paying jobs comes up regularly. Salaries are determined by the "value added" of the work of the individual. If one qualifies for only an entry level job - how should their salary be determined?

 

And yes, it is true that one who does not pay taxes will not get a tax cut. But they could benefit by getting a job created by the improved economy.

 

I'll betcha that grads with degrees in compsci or engineering will not be coming into the market at the minimum wage level. However, a kid who spent 6 years taking easy courses and partying while seeking his Masters degree in ancient musical composition will have a problem with his student loans and be leeching off Mommy and Daddy for a long time.


"Value added" - That's the problem. They are undervalued! I believe that is the #1 complaint among college grads. The jobs aren't paying what the degree is worth. Of course, there are a few exceptions, like technology, engineering, etc. that tend to start at higher levels.

I can understand their feelings - they have a lot of time, work, and money tied up in their degree. But the employer has to look at it from the perspective of the value they add to the product of service being sold.

 

But then look at what teachers are paid, and not only do they start at a low income level, they seldom ever get much in the way of a raise (until they go on strike!). It is one reason so many have left teaching for professional education or other work. Many of today's students have no reason to pursue a teaching career because it doesn't pay well. Students know what degrees are going to get them a job, and which degrees will offer the most opportunity. 

Teachers are civil servants - so there is no product being sold. I agree that they are under-valued but it is a different situation from the private sector.

 

Jobs created by the improved economy? Maybe the jobs are there but tax revenues are not, as the deficit rises. We're at full employment, and the status of the "47%'ers" that you like mention, has not changed.  If it has: Show me the data!

You're right, the economy has improved but their ability to contribute to the value of the product hasn't. So, they do not "move up".


 

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Message 4 of 53

@rk9152 wrote:

@MaVolta wrote:


Well one might think so. We have what economists consider full employment. And yet, as you mentioned, there are the 47% who pay little or no taxes. Why is that? All that money, all that profit, yet the little guy at the lower end of the economy is barely making ends meet. All that tax free money didn't give the little guy a raise, or enough of a raise to keep pace with inflation.

 

No, that tax free money it went to the top echelon and stock options for the wealthy, millions paid to lobbyists, and millions poured into political campaigns. That's where the money goes. Nor does it affect any change in lowering the cost of consumer products. They calculate that differently.

This issue of low paying jobs comes up regularly here Meanwhile, college grads cannot get an opening level position that will pay enough to make any dent in downpaying the massive student debt they have accummulated for 4 years or more.


The issue of low paying jobs comes up regularly. Salaries are determined by the "value added" of the work of the individual. If one qualifies for only an entry level job - how should their salary be determined?

 

And yes, it is true that one who does not pay taxes will not get a tax cut. But they could benefit by getting a job created by the improved economy.

 

I'll betcha that grads with degrees in compsci or engineering will not be coming into the market at the minimum wage level. However, a kid who spent 6 years taking easy courses and partying while seeking his Masters degree in ancient musical composition will have a problem with his student loans and be leeching off Mommy and Daddy for a long time.


"Value added" - That's the problem. They are undervalued! I believe that is the #1 complaint among college grads. The jobs aren't paying what the degree is worth. Of course, there are a few exceptions, like technology, engineering, etc. that tend to start at higher levels.

 

But then look at what teachers are paid, and not only do they start at a low income level, they seldom ever get much in the way of a raise (until they go on strike!). It is one reason so many have left teaching for professional education or other work. Many of today's students have no reason to pursue a teaching career because it doesn't pay well. Students know what degrees are going to get them a job, and which degrees will offer the most opportunity. 

 

Jobs created by the improved economy? Maybe the jobs are there but tax revenues are not, as the deficit rises. We're at full employment, and the status of the "47%'ers" that you like mention, has not changed.  If it has: Show me the data!

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Re: This is UR President U Must Be So Proud 2b American

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Message 5 of 53

@rk9152 wrote:

 

I'll betcha that grads with degrees in compsci or engineering will not be coming into the market at the minimum wage level. However, a kid who spent 6 years taking easy courses and partying while seeking his Masters degree in ancient musical composition will have a problem with his student loans and be leeching off Mommy and Daddy for a long time.

 

Dead wrong as usual.

 

There is a considerable market for people knowledgeable about music composition and performance of works between one hundred fifty and seven hundred years old and a considerable market for those skilled in performance of that era of music...

There is a considerable increase in the number of professionals performing in that genre, and of performances both here and abroad.

 

Ever hear of a countertenor?   

Ever hear a world class countertenor performing works written for that male vocal range between the mid 1500s and late 1800s?

There are about a hundred men out there in the world with musical skills and voices that have resulted in their singing lead roles at the Met and elsewhere worldwide...

 

Check this out - 99% of professional female vocalists have considerable trouble performing this...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXmF6h3Yd_A

 

Here's the same guy without the "costumery"...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lMUyMk4LuA&list=RDEMkZwVdf1QuB5wleMN3MoSNg&start_radio=1

 

pickin and strummin?  country and western?

Is there anyone in those genres who can be favorably compared with Yepez, Segovia, and Williams?  

 

Not in the last century - and not so far in this century - some come close - but still no cigar...

 

Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and others will be remembered for further centuries - will pop, CW composers and performers be remembered as long?  Thus far, that hasn't been the case...

 

That points out a serious flaw that's endemic with tRump and his conservative followers/worshippers - they care too much about money and other "stuff" to appreciate the finest things in life...

 

 

44>dolt45
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Message 6 of 53

@MaVolta wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@MaVolta wrote:


Wrong again! The "bail out" to GM was a government loan that was paid back with interest. And now, the Trump tax cuts have made it possible for GM to pay zero in taxes and have a negative effective tax rate, not the 21% going rate. But price of cars will rise because of Trump tariffs, and the production of economy cars reduced because of regulation roll backs and Trump's 'war' with Mexico.

 

The economy was already doing well, and would have continued to do just fine without the tax cuts. Every economist worth his/her weight in salt came out against the tax cuts because tax cuts are meant to stimulate slow growth economies. That was not the case. Trump had already rolled back a ton of regulations, and that alone continued to stimulate growth, especially in the energy sector. The benefactors of tax cuts were primarily energy companies. Go figure.


Yes, the government often gets financially involved to keep a company or industry going. that is separate from the overseas account issue which has been around for a long time.

 

Trump did cut taxes and reduce regulation as a way to boost the economy - it worked he have amazingly low unemployment. Seems like a good thing.


Well one might think so. We have what economists consider full employment. And yet, as you mentioned, there are the 47% who pay little or no taxes. Why is that? All that money, all that profit, yet the little guy at the lower end of the economy is barely making ends meet. All that tax free money didn't give the little guy a raise, or enough of a raise to keep pace with inflation.

 

No, that tax free money it went to the top echelon and stock options for the wealthy, millions paid to lobbyists, and millions poured into political campaigns. That's where the money goes. Nor does it affect any change in lowering the cost of consumer products. They calculate that differently.

This issue of low paying jobs comes up regularly here Meanwhile, college grads cannot get an opening level position that will pay enough to make any dent in downpaying the massive student debt they have accummulated for 4 years or more.


The issue of low paying jobs comes up regularly. Salaries are determined by the "value added" of the work of the individual. If one qualifies for only an entry level job - how should their salary be determined?

 

And yes, it is true that one who does not pay taxes will not get a tax cut. But they could benefit by getting a job created by the improved economy.

 

I'll betcha that grads with degrees in compsci or engineering will not be coming into the market at the minimum wage level. However, a kid who spent 6 years taking easy courses and partying while seeking his Masters degree in ancient musical composition will have a problem with his student loans and be leeching off Mommy and Daddy for a long time.

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Message 7 of 53

@rk9152 wrote:

@MaVolta wrote:


Wrong again! The "bail out" to GM was a government loan that was paid back with interest. And now, the Trump tax cuts have made it possible for GM to pay zero in taxes and have a negative effective tax rate, not the 21% going rate. But price of cars will rise because of Trump tariffs, and the production of economy cars reduced because of regulation roll backs and Trump's 'war' with Mexico.

 

The economy was already doing well, and would have continued to do just fine without the tax cuts. Every economist worth his/her weight in salt came out against the tax cuts because tax cuts are meant to stimulate slow growth economies. That was not the case. Trump had already rolled back a ton of regulations, and that alone continued to stimulate growth, especially in the energy sector. The benefactors of tax cuts were primarily energy companies. Go figure.


Yes, the government often gets financially involved to keep a company or industry going. that is separate from the overseas account issue which has been around for a long time.

 

Trump did cut taxes and reduce regulation as a way to boost the economy - it worked he have amazingly low unemployment. Seems like a good thing.


Well one might think so. We have what economists consider full employment. And yet, as you mentioned, there are the 47% who pay little or no taxes. Why is that? All that money, all that profit, yet the little guy at the lower end of the economy is barely making ends meet. All that tax free money didn't give the little guy a raise, or enough of a raise to keep pace with inflation.

 

No, that tax free money it went to the top echelon and stock options for the wealthy, millions paid to lobbyists, and millions poured into political campaigns. That's where the money goes. Nor does it affect any change in lowering the cost of consumer products. They calculate that differently.

 

Meanwhile, college grads cannot get an opening level position that will pay enough to make any dent in downpaying the massive student debt they have accummulated for 4 years or more.

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Re: This is UR President U Must Be So Proud 2b American

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Message 8 of 53

@MaVolta wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@mandm84 wrote:

9152 says "BTW Obama also bailed the auto industry out - do you find fault with that?"

-----------------------

That was to save thousands of Jobs and a Huge Industry. Are Republican's against that , but ok with Billionaires hiding Trillions in Oversea's Accounts so they can get away with paying NO TAXES ?

Get your head on straight !!


Agreed - and that is my point. Much government outlays either direct support or tax support is intended to help the economy - as was the case with the Trump tax cuts.

 

I mentioned Obama to move the discussion from Trump hatred to reality.

 

O.K. it's all straightened out now.

 

And, no, that does not deal with overseas accounts but they cannot be blamed on Trump.


Wrong again! The "bail out" to GM was a government loan that was paid back with interest. And now, the Trump tax cuts have made it possible for GM to pay zero in taxes and have a negative effective tax rate, not the 21% going rate. But price of cars will rise because of Trump tariffs, and the production of economy cars reduced because of regulation roll backs and Trump's 'war' with Mexico.

 

The economy was already doing well, and would have continued to do just fine without the tax cuts. Every economist worth his/her weight in salt came out against the tax cuts because tax cuts are meant to stimulate slow growth economies. That was not the case. Trump had already rolled back a ton of regulations, and that alone continued to stimulate growth, especially in the energy sector. The benefactors of tax cuts were primarily energy companies. Go figure.



@MaVolta wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@mandm84 wrote:

9152 says "BTW Obama also bailed the auto industry out - do you find fault with that?"

-----------------------

That was to save thousands of Jobs and a Huge Industry. Are Republican's against that , but ok with Billionaires hiding Trillions in Oversea's Accounts so they can get away with paying NO TAXES ?

Get your head on straight !!


Agreed - and that is my point. Much government outlays either direct support or tax support is intended to help the economy - as was the case with the Trump tax cuts.

 

I mentioned Obama to move the discussion from Trump hatred to reality.

 

O.K. it's all straightened out now.

 

And, no, that does not deal with overseas accounts but they cannot be blamed on Trump.


Wrong again! The "bail out" to GM was a government loan that was paid back with interest. And now, the Trump tax cuts have made it possible for GM to pay zero in taxes and have a negative effective tax rate, not the 21% going rate. But price of cars will rise because of Trump tariffs, and the production of economy cars reduced because of regulation roll backs and Trump's 'war' with Mexico.

 

The economy was already doing well, and would have continued to do just fine without the tax cuts. Every economist worth his/her weight in salt came out against the tax cuts because tax cuts are meant to stimulate slow growth economies. That was not the case. Trump had already rolled back a ton of regulations, and that alone continued to stimulate growth, especially in the energy sector. The benefactors of tax cuts were primarily energy companies. Go figure.


Yes, the government often gets financially involved to keep a company or industry going. that is separate from the overseas account issue which has been around for a long time.

 

Trump did cut taxes and reduce regulation as a way to boost the economy - it worked he have amazingly low unemployment. Seems like a good thing.

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Re: This is UR President U Must Be So Proud 2b American

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Message 9 of 53

@rk9152 wrote:

@mandm84 wrote:

9152 says "BTW Obama also bailed the auto industry out - do you find fault with that?"

-----------------------

That was to save thousands of Jobs and a Huge Industry. Are Republican's against that , but ok with Billionaires hiding Trillions in Oversea's Accounts so they can get away with paying NO TAXES ?

Get your head on straight !!


Agreed - and that is my point. Much government outlays either direct support or tax support is intended to help the economy - as was the case with the Trump tax cuts.

 

I mentioned Obama to move the discussion from Trump hatred to reality.

 

O.K. it's all straightened out now.

 

And, no, that does not deal with overseas accounts but they cannot be blamed on Trump.


Wrong again! The "bail out" to GM was a government loan that was paid back with interest. And now, the Trump tax cuts have made it possible for GM to pay zero in taxes and have a negative effective tax rate, not the 21% going rate. But price of cars will rise because of Trump tariffs, and the production of economy cars reduced because of regulation roll backs and Trump's 'war' with Mexico.

 

The economy was already doing well, and would have continued to do just fine without the tax cuts. Every economist worth his/her weight in salt came out against the tax cuts because tax cuts are meant to stimulate slow growth economies. That was not the case. Trump had already rolled back a ton of regulations, and that alone continued to stimulate growth, especially in the energy sector. The benefactors of tax cuts were primarily energy companies. Go figure.

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Message 10 of 53

@mandm84 wrote:

It is what it is !!  Almost every Mass Killer has been an Angry Male White Far Right Conservative - Just Saying !!


Can you describe the political and economic ideology of any mass killer that would lead to such a conclusion? Just asking!!

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