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Re: The wall -- political and literal

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Message 21 of 37

rk9152:  There is truth in that - the President was unable to make a deal with Pelosi and Schumer. Their base is so into the cult of hatred that they cannot appear to work with the President - even in the national interest.

 

 

What's your excuse for Republicans not giving Trump his wall money while they had total control? There really is none except many Republicans know the wall is an expensive gimmick and a huge waste.

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Re: The wall -- political and literal

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Message 22 of 37

@Snoopy48 wrote:

@jimc91 wrote:

@Roxanna35 wrote:

Oh  yes!!!!  Jim  please call the President and tell him not to cave in. to hold on to the shutdown until he gets his way.  His 5 billion dollars and build the wall that Mexico would pa for it and that Americans are end on paying for.

Yes, tell  him to continue with his agenda. pretty please. fire Mueller, and continue with this friendship with Putin and North Korea. please, encourage him to do these things and really make America great again.


I think you are replying to the wrong thread...  

 

I see nothing in your post that has anything to do with the very middle of the road article I posted.  

 

Did you read anything past the first sentence or title?

 

 

 

 


Not a very middle of the road article at all. I have heard no one fighting for open borders. In fact, the Democrats offered $25 billion for border security several months ago but the Republicans and Trump only wanted a wall.


Physical barriers are only one element in border security.

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Re: The wall -- political and literal

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Message 23 of 37

@Richva wrote:

Just to be clear, the President and the Republican party shut down the government of the United States in order to fund 100 miles of "The Wall".  The funding, which Trump promised to get from Mexico, was going to be negotiated later until Trump watched a Hannity show and decided his base needed for him to shut down the government since the deal maker was incapable of making a deal. The Republican House and Senate gave up after being unable to get Trump to commit to a deal he would sign. 

 

This always happens when Republicans run the government.  


There is truth in that - the President was unable to make a deal with Pelosi and Schumer. Their base is so into the cult of hatred that they cannot appear to work with the President - even in the national interest.

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Re: The wall -- political and literal

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Message 24 of 37

@mickstuder wrote:

@jimc91 wrote:

@Roxanna35 wrote:

Oh  yes!!!!  Jim  please call the President and tell him not to cave in. to hold on to the shutdown until he gets his way.  His 5 billion dollars and build the wall that Mexico would pa for it and that Americans are end on paying for.

Yes, tell  him to continue with his agenda. pretty please. fire Mueller, and continue with this friendship with Putin and North Korea. please, encourage him to do these things and really make America great again.


I think you are replying to the wrong thread...  

 

I see nothing in your post that has anything to do with the very middle of the road article I posted.  

 

Did you read anything past the first sentence or title?

 

 

 

 


True - However I did find this in the next to last paragraph

 

In theory a wall along the southern border has merits, but in our view the proposed solution seems very old fashioned and outdated. Could it help solve people coming into the country illegally? Yes, it could.

 

POLITICAL

 

 

Trump Wall Dead.png

 

 

LITERAL

 

 

Trump Wall AB.png

 

 

Source - https://www.google.com/search?q=RIP+Trump+Border+Wall++made+of+soldiers&client=firefox-b-1&source=ln...

 

 


Does that mean that you do not think that a physical barrier can contribute to border security ........ or does it mean something else?

 

And, here is an honest picture of the troops on the border:

Image result for RIP Trump Border Wall  made of soldiers

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Re: The wall -- political and literal

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Message 25 of 37

@GailL1 wrote:

I sincerely don't think you will see any change in any state regardless of the political power in charge.  It didn't happen in any state controlled by Democrats either. Georgia did add legislation for all employers to use E-Verify but they exempted employers with less than 20 employees - that is where many are employed.  I am sure that exemption was done because of the cost of enforcement but where there is a will, there should be a way.

 

We have a process now but without enforcement, it gets pushed to the side to hire people that will work for less, that don't have to be covered by all the taxes and employment laws, rules and regs.  

 

All of us benefit from these savings - our food prices are lower, Medicaid HCBC programs are lower in cost and the person may stay out of a nursing home, we get new roofs put on at a more reasonable rate or our drives are poured cheaper.

 

I agree with you - if we don't enforce what is now on the books we do nothing to stop the flow.  

 

The only thing that a more complete border barrier might do is force those coming to a better entry point.  Personally, I think specific entry points would be an asset but yes, then we would need more agents, fact checkers, lawyers and judges.

 

How should we even determine legitimate asylum status?

 

Mick, I do not know the answer but I do not think it is the fault of either political party - it is the fault of our political system, if anything - politician don't want to ruffle anything that might hurt their chances of reelection, we have no money to pay for huge enforcement projects either by physical means or paperwork completion and verifications.

 

Did you know that one of the reason why we have so many unaccompanied minors in custody right now is because we are now requiring identification from those claiming them - with background checks.  Since many of their parents or relatives are undocumented, they aren't coming forward to claim them.  

 

We we have a mess - To me, the wall is only a symbol of the entire mess. Most of the immediate problems are from the asylum seekers but that is not to say that our Visa process doesn't need work too.  As well as our TRS (temporary refugee status) program too.  Refugee status could use some work too because IMO, we may be asked to start taking more from other parts of our globe - Venezuelans come to mind (en mass).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Here are some comments on your thoughts. Lets go by the para.
1. We need a Federal law for E verify use, and a way for employers to get workers when they are needed. There were Cos. set up to supply them, Farm work is one big area. In many states including mine that  labor has dried up to the point that some growers moved the growing across the border to Mexico.
2. I think you are correct.
3. I think you are correct but these savings should be stopped, and can be.
4. agree
5. There is no need for a border wall. Just maintain what we have now and make improvements where needed. People in the US need to realize just what the border means to us. The El Paso area would not exist if it were not for the border, and the same is true in the border area of my state.
6. We have done fairly well so far so leave it in the hands of people who know the subject.
7. It is the fault of Trump and his far right backers. This was building for some years now as the far right became more active. One thing I learned when I moved here and spent time with friends who lived close to the border. The Border Patrol was always disliked by most locals.
8. What you say is true and it should go back to the way it was. The reason behind all of that is Trump uses terror as a border control tacit which is new and should be stopped.
9. Yes we do have a mess which has been created by Trump and his followers. They have created all this false nonsense to gin up his base and to win elections. That never was the case before. Get rid of Trump, and the far right to start with, and then good people can and will solve the problem. One last thought. The far right see these people as  against them and their efforts do not stop at the border. We see it in every state the far right controls through their efforts to stop people from voting, stealing elections etc. You have to clean that up at the same time for things to change. You live in a State that leads the way in voter suppression.
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Re: The wall -- political and literal

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Message 26 of 37

@Richva wrote:

@GailL1 wrote:

 

So if we want each and every person who is employed to have their papers checked and verified, then perhaps that is what we need to do - so get your state to pass laws to this effect.

 

If an undocumented worker takes a job - how do we know that it is not replacing a job that some American might need?

 

 


What seems to be happening now is that the industries which have depended upon migrant labor are really hurting and Americans are losing jobs.  Construction, slaughterhouses, meat packing, agriculture of all types.  Even if a wall would work, it does not solve the problem. 


Why?

in the (small employer market) construction industry around here Americans are losing their jobs to those who will work for less.  

 

We have a process for migrant Ag workers - not working either?

 

Most likely, we do need some migrant workers - in fact we could use a lot of them in Hurricaine ravaged South Ga and Florida but the numbers and location should be controlled.  As so with the amount they are paid and their living conditions and cost while they are here.

 

 OR maybe this would be a great place for those Americans who need a job and those WPA-type work discussed in other threads here.  Would Americans take these jobs?  Ag, slaughterhouse, meat packing, etc.  

Some Americans are migrant workers - meaning they travel to where the work is.

 

 


* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Message 27 of 37

I sincerely don't think you will see any change in any state regardless of the political power in charge.  It didn't happen in any state controlled by Democrats either. Georgia did add legislation for all employers to use E-Verify but they exempted employers with less than 20 employees - that is where many are employed.  I am sure that exemption was done because of the cost of enforcement but where there is a will, there should be a way.

 

We have a process now but without enforcement, it gets pushed to the side to hire people that will work for less, that don't have to be covered by all the taxes and employment laws, rules and regs.  

 

All of us benefit from these savings - our food prices are lower, Medicaid HCBC programs are lower in cost and the person may stay out of a nursing home, we get new roofs put on at a more reasonable rate or our drives are poured cheaper.

 

I agree with you - if we don't enforce what is now on the books we do nothing to stop the flow.  

 

The only thing that a more complete border barrier might do is force those coming to a better entry point.  Personally, I think specific entry points would be an asset but yes, then we would need more agents, fact checkers, lawyers and judges.

 

How should we even determine legitimate asylum status?

 

Mick, I do not know the answer but I do not think it is the fault of either political party - it is the fault of our political system, if anything - politician don't want to ruffle anything that might hurt their chances of reelection, we have no money to pay for huge enforcement projects either by physical means or paperwork completion and verifications.

 

Did you know that one of the reason why we have so many unaccompanied minors in custody right now is because we are now requiring identification from those claiming them - with background checks.  Since many of their parents or relatives are undocumented, they aren't coming forward to claim them.  

 

We we have a mess - To me, the wall is only a symbol of the entire mess. Most of the immediate problems are from the asylum seekers but that is not to say that our Visa process doesn't need work too.  As well as our TRS (temporary refugee status) program too.  Refugee status could use some work too because IMO, we may be asked to start taking more from other parts of our globe - Venezuelans come to mind (en mass).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Message 28 of 37

@GailL1 wrote:

 

So if we want each and every person who is employed to have their papers checked and verified, then perhaps that is what we need to do - so get your state to pass laws to this effect.

 

If an undocumented worker takes a job - how do we know that it is not replacing a job that some American might need?

 

 


What seems to be happening now is that the industries which have depended upon migrant labor are really hurting and Americans are losing jobs.  Construction, slaughterhouses, meat packing, agriculture of all types.  Even if a wall would work, it does not solve the problem. 

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Re: The wall -- political and literal

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Message 29 of 37

@GailL1 wrote:

@alotofgrey wrote:

It is a federal crime to employ a foreigner that does not have a work permit.

 

Trump could have the DOJ enforce that law which would end our 14 million illegal immigrant problem and massively improve our border security problem.

 

5 billion on a border wall will do nothing to either problem. So why do so many want it?

 

Note. All countries have that law. We have the only government that does not enforce it. That is why we are the only country with and illegal immigrant problem. As long as they can work, they can stay. No work, they leave and none come.


But it is not the Federal government's place to enforce it at the state level - the state's have to enforce it.

 

E-Verify is there to use but the Federal government can only enforce it for Federal contractors.  Many states only enforce it for State government contractors.

 

Georgia is the only state that enforces it for all state contractors AND employers with over 20 employees.  Even that means there are many employers who go under the radar especially those in many construction and service trades.

Service trades include janitorial, agriculture, personal care,etc.  

 

Then you you have the ones that hire out their own services - they can still undercut the price of an American doing the same job because of different regulations which they can side-step under the radar.

 

Since they are undocumented  and thus have no work permit, the person hiring them for whatever task don't have to do a lot of employment task.  They don't have to pay them minimum wage, no workman's comp coverage, no payroll tax withholding and match.  

 

NYT 02/02/2018 - IF Immigrants Are Pushed Out, Who Will Care for the Elderly?

 

We have whole industries based on using cheap labor and they aren't all big, greedy employers - it maybe the person next door,  the elderly on Medicaid trying to stay in their home and this is all they can pay.  The roofer who just put on your new roof which you picked because they gave you a good price.

 

So I believe you are saying that if we don't need cheap labor to hold down our cost, we would not need them or at least their services would not beat out someone who have their pay and taxes monitored and collected.

 

It is true that many undocumented workers pay income tax and withholding employment taxes - never to receive benefits from these payroll taxes - we are collecting these monies are using them to shore up our social programs.

WE ARE THE PROBLEM - these are ill gotten gains !

 

If we need these workers - fine, let's give them a work permit and pay them their just - let them participate in our social programs of SS and Medicare if they work long enough and pay into the system.

 

But that is NOT what it seems we want to do - we seem to be acting like this is our 21st Century form of slave labor because their work saves our pocketbooks and not just those of the rich.

 

So if we want each and every person who is employed to have their papers checked and verified, then perhaps that is what we need to do - so get your state to pass laws to this effect.

 

If an undocumented worker takes a job - how do we know that it is not replacing a job that some American might need?

 

 


For the last 2 years - Republicans have had Total Control of 30 State Legislatures

 

For the last 2 years - Republicans have controlled 33 State Governorships

 

Is there any evidence that there has been any serious effort at enforcement of the Laws prohibiting the Employment of Illegal Undocumented Workers in any of these States

 

No there isn't

 

This Trump Border Wall is JOKE perpetrated on Trumps own base by Trump himself

 

Republicans with Government Power in the States - Have not prioritized eliminating the Honey that attracts the illegal immigrant bees

 

Republicans with Majority Government Power in the Federal Government - Presidency - US House - US Senate - Have not prioritized eliminating the Honey that attracts the illegal immigrant bees

 

Like the Man said - it's illegal to hire the Millions of Illegal Immigrants already here in the USA & most of them have full-time jobs

 

WHAT LOGICAL THINKING PERSON THINKS WE ARE GOING TO STOP THE NEW ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS FROM COMING IF THE ONES ALREADY HERE ARE GAINFULLY EMPLOYED?

 

You folks are insulting when you not only refuse to acknowledge this issue exists - if & when you do - you blame it not on the people with the power to enforce the law but on the people who are powerless

 

 

 

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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Message 30 of 37

@alotofgrey wrote:

It is a federal crime to employ a foreigner that does not have a work permit.

 

Trump could have the DOJ enforce that law which would end our 14 million illegal immigrant problem and massively improve our border security problem.

 

5 billion on a border wall will do nothing to either problem. So why do so many want it?

 

Note. All countries have that law. We have the only government that does not enforce it. That is why we are the only country with and illegal immigrant problem. As long as they can work, they can stay. No work, they leave and none come.


But it is not the Federal government's place to enforce it at the state level - the state's have to enforce it.

 

E-Verify is there to use but the Federal government can only enforce it for Federal contractors.  Many states only enforce it for State government contractors.

 

Georgia is the only state that enforces it for all state contractors AND employers with over 20 employees.  Even that means there are many employers who go under the radar especially those in many construction and service trades.

Service trades include janitorial, agriculture, personal care,etc.  

 

Then you you have the ones that hire out their own services - they can still undercut the price of an American doing the same job because of different regulations which they can side-step under the radar.

 

Since they are undocumented  and thus have no work permit, the person hiring them for whatever task don't have to do a lot of employment task.  They don't have to pay them minimum wage, no workman's comp coverage, no payroll tax withholding and match.  

 

NYT 02/02/2018 - IF Immigrants Are Pushed Out, Who Will Care for the Elderly?

 

We have whole industries based on using cheap labor and they aren't all big, greedy employers - it maybe the person next door,  the elderly on Medicaid trying to stay in their home and this is all they can pay.  The roofer who just put on your new roof which you picked because they gave you a good price.

 

So I believe you are saying that if we don't need cheap labor to hold down our cost, we would not need them or at least their services would not beat out someone who have their pay and taxes monitored and collected.

 

It is true that many undocumented workers pay income tax and withholding employment taxes - never to receive benefits from these payroll taxes - we are collecting these monies are using them to shore up our social programs.

WE ARE THE PROBLEM - these are ill gotten gains !

 

If we need these workers - fine, let's give them a work permit and pay them their just - let them participate in our social programs of SS and Medicare if they work long enough and pay into the system.

 

But that is NOT what it seems we want to do - we seem to be acting like this is our 21st Century form of slave labor because their work saves our pocketbooks and not just those of the rich.

 

So if we want each and every person who is employed to have their papers checked and verified, then perhaps that is what we need to do - so get your state to pass laws to this effect.

 

If an undocumented worker takes a job - how do we know that it is not replacing a job that some American might need?

 

 


* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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