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Treasured Social Butterfly
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Re: The Progressive Movement

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Message 181 of 396

@rk9152 wrote:

 

What is so wrong with anyone agreeing with Marx and saying so?? Remember, we are not talking about Stalin here.


How have I deviated? I started with the proposition that the Progressive Movement incorporates some of the thinking of Karl Marx.

Generally speaking, Progressives feel that agreeing with the philosophy of Marx is a pretty stupid thing to do. As a result, there would be wide disagreement that today's Progressive's would incorporate the thinking of Marx.  Especially without any supporting evidence that this is the case. 

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Valued Social Butterfly
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Re: The Progressive Movement

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Message 182 of 396

@rk9152 wrote:

@MIseker wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Richva wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

Forget your opinion of Republicans and dilitants (whatever they are). The issue is your opinion of Marx. And it is.....??

 

And those "factory owners", do you want them to invest their money to create the jobs and the needed products or would you rather trust the government to do it?


If the only definition of "progressive" a person will accept is "marxist", then 

a) The definition is inconsistent with reality and 

b) There is no point in discussion. 

 

Your last statement seems to assume that Progressives wish to have all jobs sponsored by the government and this is simply not the case. Progressives simple look to facts such as that coal miners jobs have been replaced by machines an those job creators move jobs overseas whenever possible. 

 

Then, they look for solutions and not bumper stickers. 

 

 


Let's not uncomplicate this thing. It boils down to a very basic set of questions - do the concepts offered by Marx seem right, and, do you see the basic flaw in his thinking.


You have deviated from your own topic; looking for a marxist is now your goal.

 


How have I deviated? I started with the proposition that the Progressive Movement incorporates some of the thinking of Karl Marx.

 

What is so wrong with anyone agreeing with Marx and saying so?? Remember, we are not talking about Stalin here.


What is wrong with you providing your proof that progressives should be called Neo-Marxists?

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Re: The Progressive Movement

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Message 183 of 396

@MIseker wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Richva wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

Forget your opinion of Republicans and dilitants (whatever they are). The issue is your opinion of Marx. And it is.....??

 

And those "factory owners", do you want them to invest their money to create the jobs and the needed products or would you rather trust the government to do it?


If the only definition of "progressive" a person will accept is "marxist", then 

a) The definition is inconsistent with reality and 

b) There is no point in discussion. 

 

Your last statement seems to assume that Progressives wish to have all jobs sponsored by the government and this is simply not the case. Progressives simple look to facts such as that coal miners jobs have been replaced by machines an those job creators move jobs overseas whenever possible. 

 

Then, they look for solutions and not bumper stickers. 

 

 


Let's not uncomplicate this thing. It boils down to a very basic set of questions - do the concepts offered by Marx seem right, and, do you see the basic flaw in his thinking.


You have deviated from your own topic; looking for a marxist is now your goal.

 


How have I deviated? I started with the proposition that the Progressive Movement incorporates some of the thinking of Karl Marx.

 

What is so wrong with anyone agreeing with Marx and saying so?? Remember, we are not talking about Stalin here.

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Re: The Progressive Movement

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Message 184 of 396

@pc6063 wrote:

Rk-It's advice! 

 What I would advise is that people who know that Democrats are not Neo Marxists, continue to post the facts so that others who may not be apprised of the truth don't fall into the pitfalls of believing this stuff about the new neo-Marxist eta, which is garbage.


Thank you for the spelling advice. There is another topic dealing with such pettiness.

 

As to your "advice" - great, learn the thinking of Marx, see what you agree with and disagree with, and then engage in discussion.

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Re: The Progressive Movement

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Message 185 of 396

@Snoopy48 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@t626997p wrote:

I am a new poster in this message board, and have been reading this thread with interest.
In response to your post. Why instead of asking from posters on the similarities of Progressivism and Marxism why don't you provide those similarities, it is your post, you in a way are responsible to prove what you have posted.


That is a good point. Unfortunately the words Marxism, Communism, Socialism, Nazism, Fascism, Progressivism etal all have a variety of meanings to different people. Some use them as insults or something to get defensive about without having any idea as to the actual meaning.

 

That is why I tried to establish a baseline of understanding as a preliminary to this discussion. I offered a BBC film on the subject of Marx himself, a talk by a learned self-described Marxist and told where to get a free copy of Marx's writings.

 

My hope was that once people got a solid understanding of what Marxism is all about they could then compare his goals and methodology with that of Progressivism, the relationship while not exactly the same would become obvious.

 

As to your proposal, "Why don't you...." - as you may have noticed, many posters only look at the originator to determine their agreement or disagreement before even reading. I hoped that the sources I offered would provide a more neutral starting place. Even at the the bias crept in - the BBC was accused of distorting and Wolff was called a RWNJ. That is an example of the depth of thought often brought to these discussions.


Maybe if you had not started the topic by calling others names you would have gotten better responses. In spite of your demands that others provide their opinions on how progressives are following Marxism you have not provided any facts to support your opinion.

 

Are you just looking for​ something to back up your belief?



What names did I call anyone starting this topic? Please don't just ignore this - it is a very important element of this discussion. I don't believe I called anyone names and if I did, I'd like to see where.

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Re: The Progressive Movement

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Message 186 of 396
The IWW does not embrace any particular political ideal. IWW.ORG
So it begins.
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Re: The Progressive Movement

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Message 187 of 396

@rk9152 wrote:

@Richva wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

Forget your opinion of Republicans and dilitants (whatever they are). The issue is your opinion of Marx. And it is.....??

 

And those "factory owners", do you want them to invest their money to create the jobs and the needed products or would you rather trust the government to do it?


If the only definition of "progressive" a person will accept is "marxist", then 

a) The definition is inconsistent with reality and 

b) There is no point in discussion. 

 

Your last statement seems to assume that Progressives wish to have all jobs sponsored by the government and this is simply not the case. Progressives simple look to facts such as that coal miners jobs have been replaced by machines an those job creators move jobs overseas whenever possible. 

 

Then, they look for solutions and not bumper stickers. 

 

 


Let's not uncomplicate this thing. It boils down to a very basic set of questions - do the concepts offered by Marx seem right, and, do you see the basic flaw in his thinking.


You have deviated from your own topic; looking for a marxist is now your goal.

 

So it begins.
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Re: The Progressive Movement

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Message 188 of 396

@rk9152 wrote:

@t626997p wrote:

I am a new poster in this message board, and have been reading this thread with interest.
In response to your post. Why instead of asking from posters on the similarities of Progressivism and Marxism why don't you provide those similarities, it is your post, you in a way are responsible to prove what you have posted.


That is a good point. Unfortunately the words Marxism, Communism, Socialism, Nazism, Fascism, Progressivism etal all have a variety of meanings to different people. Some use them as insults or something to get defensive about without having any idea as to the actual meaning.

 

That is why I tried to establish a baseline of understanding as a preliminary to this discussion. I offered a BBC film on the subject of Marx himself, a talk by a learned self-described Marxist and told where to get a free copy of Marx's writings.

 

My hope was that once people got a solid understanding of what Marxism is all about they could then compare his goals and methodology with that of Progressivism, the relationship while not exactly the same would become obvious.

 

As to your proposal, "Why don't you...." - as you may have noticed, many posters only look at the originator to determine their agreement or disagreement before even reading. I hoped that the sources I offered would provide a more neutral starting place. Even at the the bias crept in - the BBC was accused of distorting and Wolff was called a RWNJ. That is an example of the depth of thought often brought to these discussions.


Maybe if you had not started the topic by calling others names you would have gotten better responses. In spite of your demands that others provide their opinions on how progressives are following Marxism you have not provided any facts to support your opinion.

 

Are you just looking for​ something to back up your belief?


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Re: The Progressive Movement

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Message 189 of 396

@rk9152 wrote:

@t626997p wrote:

I am a new poster in this message board, and have been reading this thread with interest.
In response to your post. Why instead of asking from posters on the similarities of Progressivism and Marxism why don't you provide those similarities, it is your post, you in a way are responsible to prove what you have posted.


That is a good point. Unfortunately the words Marxism, Communism, Socialism, Nazism, Fascism, Progressivism etal all have a variety of meanings to different people. Some use them as insults or something to get defensive about without having any idea as to the actual meaning.

 

That is why I tried to establish a baseline of understanding as a preliminary to this discussion. I offered a BBC film on the subject of Marx himself, a talk by a learned self-described Marxist and told where to get a free copy of Marx's writings.

 

My hope was that once people got a solid understanding of what Marxism is all about they could then compare his goals and methodology with that of Progressivism, the relationship while not exactly the same would become obvious.

 

As to your proposal, "Why don't you...." - as you may have noticed, many posters only look at the originator to determine their agreement or disagreement before even reading. I hoped that the sources I offered would provide a more neutral starting place. Even at the the bias crept in - the BBC was accused of distorting and Wolff was called a RWNJ. That is an example of the depth of thought often brought to these discussions.


You have stated your point quite well, but I  still, would like to see your personal opinion on what the similarities may be. I am sure that you must have reached some decissions on this subject. I will admit that it would be easy for me to simply search on the Internet for different opinions on this subject. but, I am now intrigued as to  whar are your personal opinions on this subject.
Please, this is a very interesting subject. therefore, all opinions are welcome

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Re: The Progressive Movement

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Message 190 of 396

@pc6063 wrote:

 

 Now you see exactly what I was telling you.

 First day debate class make sure you can support your argument making your position and supporting facts clear to the opposing team. 

 Oops'  guess our film guy missed that!


--

It is apparent that the 'film guy' gave a good basis of argument.  So is there an attempt at dissension based on the poster who did so?

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