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Valued Social Butterfly

Re: Supporters and opposers of Syria strikes

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Message 1 of 12

BTW(2) - how many Muslims were killed by the recent attack?

 

Maybe none

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a83...

 

The search for truth in the rubble of Douma – and one doctor’s doubts over the chemical attack

 

This is the story of a town called Douma, a ravaged, stinking place of smashed apartment blocks – and of an underground clinic whose images of suffering allowed three of the Western world’s most powerful nations to bomb Syria last week. There’s even a friendly doctor in a green coat who, when I track him down in the very same clinic, cheerfully tells me that the “gas” videotape which horrified the world – despite all the doubters – is perfectly genuine.

 

War stories, however, have a habit of growing darker. For the same 58-year old senior Syrian doctor then adds something profoundly uncomfortable: the patients, he says, were overcome not by gas but by oxygen starvation in the rubbish-filled tunnels and basements in which they lived, on a night of wind and heavy shelling that stirred up a dust storm.

 

 

 

Maybe when stuff like this happens there should be a port mortem on a sample of the bodies by some independent authority before we start bombing.

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Valued Social Butterfly

Re: Supporters and opposers of Syria strikes

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Message 2 of 12

@Olderscout66wrote:

The problem is not Progressives thinking chlorine cannot be used as a poison gas.

 

The problem is Regressives thinking its possible to prevent a country from making chlorine gas weapons without occupying the country and enslaving its people.

 

What Der Trumper did was totally meaningless in ending Assad's use of chlorine gas to kill his opponents. Its only utility was it blew stuff up and killed some Muslims, which will always elate his followers regardless of the cost or stupidity involved.

 

Only Republicans consider a gutless draft-dodging preppytwit sending brave warriors to die for a lie to be a sign of LEADING. They did it when jrbush sent thousands to die and millions to suffer PTSD for a LIE, and they're doing it with Der Trtumper's infantile response to a difficult situation.


"Progressive" is a defined political ideology that can be found defined - in fact, there is even a "Progressive Movement". But "Regressive"?? That sounds like something that lives in your head.

 

BTW - are you recommending that we occupy a country and enslave its citizens?

 

BTW(2) - how many Muslims were killed by the recent attack?

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Valued Social Butterfly

Re: Supporters and opposers of Syria strikes

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Message 3 of 12

@Olderscout66wrote:

@rk9152wrote:


- how did Obama deal with that war crime during his Administration? And, what to you expect an American President to do about a war crime?


President Obama did it with sanctions against Russia and assembling a united front among our allies resulting in Assad surrendering all his chemical weapons which were then destroyed, mostly aboard specially equipped US Naval vessels. Not a single American life was lost or even threatened, the cost was infinitesimal compared to the cost of Der Trumper's infantile tantrum, and it left Assad with only a "weapon" that CANNOT be removed from a Nation-State without occupying the State like jrbush did in Iraq, and we all understand what a total disaster for the US that stupidity has been.

 

In short, President Obama dealt with the war crime by removing the "agent" of the crime - chemical weapons. Der Trumper blew some stuff up and killed some Muslims and wizzed away over $50Million but had ZERO impact on Assad's ability to re-commit the crime tomorrow. Its the difference between how an adult deals with a difficult situation and how an infant reacts when his will is thwarted. But stuff blew up and Muslims died, so Trumps base will be overjoyed.


If I understand you, Obama punished Assad for war crimes by sanctions on another country. And then he took away all of Assad's illegal weapons - but it was never verified.

 

Adoration for the guy you used to call the black man in the WH really sends you in strange directions.

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Valued Social Butterfly

Re: Supporters and opposers of Syria strikes

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Message 4 of 12

The problem is not Progressives thinking chlorine cannot be used as a poison gas.

 

The problem is Regressives thinking its possible to prevent a country from making chlorine gas weapons without occupying the country and enslaving its people.

 

What Der Trumper did was totally meaningless in ending Assad's use of chlorine gas to kill his opponents. Its only utility was it blew stuff up and killed some Muslims, which will always elate his followers regardless of the cost or stupidity involved.

 

Only Republicans consider a gutless draft-dodging preppytwit sending brave warriors to die for a lie to be a sign of LEADING. They did it when jrbush sent thousands to die and millions to suffer PTSD for a LIE, and they're doing it with Der Trtumper's infantile response to a difficult situation.

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Valued Social Butterfly

Re: Supporters and opposers of Syria strikes

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Message 5 of 12

@Olderscout66wrote:

@rk9152wrote:

@Olderscout66wrote:

Opposition to Der Trumper's $50Million tantrum must not be confused with support for Assad.

 

When this happened before, President Obama used DIPLOMACY to eliminate all Syria's stockpile of chemical weapons without firing a single shot or endangering a single US Troop. The UN inspectors verified all chemical weapon production and R&D facilities and been destroyed, and all the chemical weapon stockpile had been turned over for destruction, much of this done on board specially equipped US Naval vessels.

 

Chlorine gas in NOT considered a "chemical weapon" mostly because it is used to purify drinking water and since all you need to produce it is to pass an electrical current through salt water, attempting to eliminate a Nation's "production facilities" is a fool's errand.

 

The incident causing all the outrage was a group of Syrian Rebels hold-up in a civilian neighborhood and refusing to leave. Syria dropped a 55-gal drum of chlorine gas "detonated" with a small explosive charge, the gas penetrated the Rebel fortification and killed a number of civilians, and the Rebels agreed to leave the area. Previously, Syria had been attacking the Rebels with High Explosive artillery, bombs and rockets which may have killed even more civilians.

 

After giving the Syrians plenty of time to remove all their military assets to "safe" (Russian) bases, Der Trumper blew some stuff up accomplishing nothing except enhancing the profits for the Death Merchants who will replace the munitions used in the attack, and killing a few more Syrians.

 

Killing people with Chlorine gas is a War Crime and the ones who did it SHOULD be punished, but that is NOT what Der Trumper did and no amount of Fox-bot spin will alter that fact.


- how did Obama deal with that war crime during his Administration? And, what to you expect an American President to do about a war crime?


President Obama did it with sanctions against Russia and assembling a united front among our allies resulting in Assad surrendering all his chemical weapons which were then destroyed, mostly aboard specially equipped US Naval vessels. Not a single American life was lost or even threatened, the cost was infinitesimal compared to the cost of Der Trumper's infantile tantrum, and it left Assad with only a "weapon" that CANNOT be removed from a Nation-State without occupying the State like jrbush did in Iraq, and we all understand what a total disaster for the US that stupidity has been.

 

In short, President Obama dealt with the war crime by removing the "agent" of the crime - chemical weapons. Der Trumper blew some stuff up and killed some Muslims and wizzed away over $50Million but had ZERO impact on Assad's ability to re-commit the crime tomorrow. Its the difference between how an adult deals with a difficult situation and how an infant reacts when his will is thwarted. But stuff blew up and Muslims died, so Trumps base will be overjoyed.


That is the real difference between Obama and Trump. Obama led from behind while Trump leads from the front. Which do you think Russia and Syria will remember more? Leading from the front or behind?

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Valued Social Butterfly

Re: Supporters and opposers of Syria strikes

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Message 6 of 12

@rk9152wrote:

@Olderscout66wrote:

Opposition to Der Trumper's $50Million tantrum must not be confused with support for Assad.

 

When this happened before, President Obama used DIPLOMACY to eliminate all Syria's stockpile of chemical weapons without firing a single shot or endangering a single US Troop. The UN inspectors verified all chemical weapon production and R&D facilities and been destroyed, and all the chemical weapon stockpile had been turned over for destruction, much of this done on board specially equipped US Naval vessels.

 

Chlorine gas in NOT considered a "chemical weapon" mostly because it is used to purify drinking water and since all you need to produce it is to pass an electrical current through salt water, attempting to eliminate a Nation's "production facilities" is a fool's errand.

 

The incident causing all the outrage was a group of Syrian Rebels hold-up in a civilian neighborhood and refusing to leave. Syria dropped a 55-gal drum of chlorine gas "detonated" with a small explosive charge, the gas penetrated the Rebel fortification and killed a number of civilians, and the Rebels agreed to leave the area. Previously, Syria had been attacking the Rebels with High Explosive artillery, bombs and rockets which may have killed even more civilians.

 

After giving the Syrians plenty of time to remove all their military assets to "safe" (Russian) bases, Der Trumper blew some stuff up accomplishing nothing except enhancing the profits for the Death Merchants who will replace the munitions used in the attack, and killing a few more Syrians.

 

Killing people with Chlorine gas is a War Crime and the ones who did it SHOULD be punished, but that is NOT what Der Trumper did and no amount of Fox-bot spin will alter that fact.


- how did Obama deal with that war crime during his Administration? And, what to you expect an American President to do about a war crime?


President Obama did it with sanctions against Russia and assembling a united front among our allies resulting in Assad surrendering all his chemical weapons which were then destroyed, mostly aboard specially equipped US Naval vessels. Not a single American life was lost or even threatened, the cost was infinitesimal compared to the cost of Der Trumper's infantile tantrum, and it left Assad with only a "weapon" that CANNOT be removed from a Nation-State without occupying the State like jrbush did in Iraq, and we all understand what a total disaster for the US that stupidity has been.

 

In short, President Obama dealt with the war crime by removing the "agent" of the crime - chemical weapons. Der Trumper blew some stuff up and killed some Muslims and wizzed away over $50Million but had ZERO impact on Assad's ability to re-commit the crime tomorrow. Its the difference between how an adult deals with a difficult situation and how an infant reacts when his will is thwarted. But stuff blew up and Muslims died, so Trumps base will be overjoyed.

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Treasured Social Butterfly

Re: Supporters and opposers of Syria strikes

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Message 7 of 12

At first I was suspicious about the timing of the "chemical attack" in Douma. As evil as he is, and judging how determined he is to hold onto power, I still didn't think Dr. Assad is foolish enough to drop a barrel of chlorine, or any other chemical at this juncture of the war.


When I saw on the TV news that Syria and/or Russia would not allow the chemical weapons inspectors (OPCW) to begin their work when they arrived there yesterday (Monday), I felt convinced Assad was guilty, as least in some way. I guess it's possible some segment of his army took it upon themselves to drop chlorine or some other chemical, but not very likely.


Then I read the inspectors will begin their work today (Tuesday). So, we'll have to wait and see.


Now that the jihadist-occupied suburb of Douma has been retaken by the Syrian government, western journalists have been allowed in to poke around and start asking questions.


Here's a video from One America News...

 

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Valued Social Butterfly

Re: Supporters and opposers of Syria strikes

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Message 8 of 12

Supporters and opposers of Syria strikes

 

So the solution is to say ................. hey we're going to bomb you tomorrow to send a message that you're inhuman behaviour is unacceptable, let them clear out, bomb some burned out rubble, and then declare victory.

 

Mission accomplished.

 

Scout brought up how chlorine  can be used a weapon, it's really not a hi tech process, he said pass a electric current though it, but all they really need to do is to mix powdered chlorine with a hydrocarbon, like motor oil, to create a reaction and make it burn explosively, the gas it creates is chlorine gas. Don't try this at home with you swimming pool chlorine, it will work and create chlorine gas.

 

So destroy all the chlorine with bombs right, but chlorine is used to disinfect drinking water and you can buy it at Wal Mart. Destroy all the chlorine is Syria the only thing you'll accomplish is the spread of water borne disease.

 

Well destroy the equipment and kill the personnel, OK but that won't work when you give advance notice of the bombing, they'll get get in the helicopters and fly to the nearest Russian base.

 

It's a dog and pony show.  

 

 

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Valued Social Butterfly

Re: Supporters and opposers of Syria strikes

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Message 9 of 12

@Olderscout66wrote:

Opposition to Der Trumper's $50Million tantrum must not be confused with support for Assad.

 

When this happened before, President Obama used DIPLOMACY to eliminate all Syria's stockpile of chemical weapons without firing a single shot or endangering a single US Troop. The UN inspectors verified all chemical weapon production and R&D facilities ahd been destroyed, and all the chemical weapon stockpile had been turned over for destruction, much of this done on board specially equipt US Naval vessels.

 

Chlorine gas in NOT considered a "chemical weapon" mostly because it is used to purify drinking water and since all you need to produce it is to pass an electrical current through salt water, attempting to eliminate a Nation's "production facilities" is a fool's errand.

 

The incident causing all the outrage was a group of Syrian Rebels hold-up in a civilian neighborhood and refusing to leave. Syria dropped a 55-gal drum of chlorine gas "detonated" with a small explosive charge, the gas penetrated the Rebel fortification and killed a number of civilians, and the Rebels agreed to leave the area. Previously, Syria had been attacking the Rebels with High Explosive artillery, bombs and rockets which may have killed even more civilians.

 

After giving the Syrians plenty of time to remove all their military assets to "safe" (Russian) bases, Der Trumper blew some stuff up accomplishing nothing except inhancing the profits whor the Death Merchants who will replace the munitions used in the attack, and killinga few more Syrians.

 

Killing people with Chlorine gas is a War Crime and the ones who did it SHOULD be punished, but that is NOT what Der Trumper did and no amount of Fox-bot spin will alter that fact.


The above is just a repeat of the continued "It's wrong because President Trump did it". But the last comment - how did Obama deal with that war crime during his Administration? And, what to you expect an American President to do about a war crime?

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Conversationalist

Re: Supporters and opposers of Syria strikes

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Message 10 of 12

Der Kool-Aid drinkers - do who believe Korea has no nuclear weapons since the UN and Pres Clinton negotiated and verified all the nuclear sites were dismantled and of course Obama and Jim Kerry made sure Syria removed all their chemical weapons, Putin made sure of that and you believe Putin (or only when you want to). USA, UK, and France - along with the support of other countries in the region, destroyed chemcial research, production, and storage facilities. I know you can't stand American and our allies taken a humanitarian position on killing children with a chemical weapon. Oh no Chlorine gas is NOT a chemical weapon according to liberals because you use it in drinking water? The deadly affect chlorine has with one part per million residual in drinking water on bacteria is a toxic poison - imagine at 100% the dreadful affect on a 12 month old baby. It was banned as a toxic poison chemical weapon after it was used in WWI to kill troops. Are you drinking Grape or Cherry Kool-Aid today.

 

From the Kirsch Foundation website and UN category 1 and 2 chemical weapons:

 

Chemical weapons are typically categorized as blister, nerve, choking, blood and riot-control agents, and the effects of these weapons are felt immediately upon inhalation or skin contact. Examples of chemical weapons are mustard gas, sarin, chlorine, hydrogen cyanide and tear gas.

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