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Valued Social Butterfly
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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 31 of 110

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

rk9152 wrote"And this is the last time I am going to explain that the issue is not what motivates the consumer to buy. It is not a matter whether or not consumers have a choice. It is much simpler than that - taxes paid are a cost of doing business and are reflected in the price - hence, the consumer pays the taxes (albeit indirectly)."

 

You are forcing consumers to support companies even if they are not buying their products.  It is a matter of choice, whether you want to ackowledge or not.


Let's try to boil this down it the basics. I believe that any taxes a company pays comes from it's cash inflow. The cash inflow comes from the customers. Ergo, it really is the customers money that is paying the taxes.

 

Can we agree on that?


So why do you expect me to support a company whos products I choose not to buy.  The end customer should be paying the full cost of the product and not expecting it to be subsidized in the free market.


Can we simply deal with the basic question of where the money comes from to pay corporate taxes. It is my belief that it comes from the consumer. Can we agree on that? If so, we can then more on to other issues.


All costs for a good or service will be beared by the end user.  If corporations are allowed to pay a lower tax rate, this means that all consumers are forced to subsidize a corporation to artificially deflate their price points, with the cost being passed on to all.  If you really believe in a free market, than you should also believe in the power of the consumer to pick and choose what and how much they consume.

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 32 of 110

I believe that problem begins when companies decide that they should have more profits than what they thought they could get. and as far as they can get their price they will try and sell for that.

 

Not really. You walk into the store and probably consider price when making your determination between two basically comparable brands. I know my wife is a BOGO fanatic. Any why? You want to spend less.

 

The company, on the other hand, wants to make as much as possible. It is the competition of multiple companies that allows you to be a prudent shopper and keeps check on the companies's pricing.

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 33 of 110

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

rk9152 wrote"And this is the last time I am going to explain that the issue is not what motivates the consumer to buy. It is not a matter whether or not consumers have a choice. It is much simpler than that - taxes paid are a cost of doing business and are reflected in the price - hence, the consumer pays the taxes (albeit indirectly)."

 

You are forcing consumers to support companies even if they are not buying their products.  It is a matter of choice, whether you want to ackowledge or not.


Let's try to boil this down it the basics. I believe that any taxes a company pays comes from it's cash inflow. The cash inflow comes from the customers. Ergo, it really is the customers money that is paying the taxes.

 

Can we agree on that?


So why do you expect me to support a company whos products I choose not to buy.  The end customer should be paying the full cost of the product and not expecting it to be subsidized in the free market.


Can we simply deal with the basic question of where the money comes from to pay corporate taxes. It is my belief that it comes from the consumer. Can we agree on that? If so, we can then more on to other issues.

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 34 of 110

@rk9152 wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@KidBoy2 wrote:


When we had a business people would ask about our profit. I would say its not profit it making a living .. hope to make what a worker in the mill makes, hope to make what a school teacher makes..etc....people could understand that.

So paying board members $$Millions$$ and CEOs multiple $$Millions$$ and 400 times more that a worker makes is just "making a living" ??????  Uh ............. the correct answer is NO !


How is that class warfare jazz connected to the fact that the consumers actually pay corporate taxes?

 

Uh.......the correct answer is it isn't.


It's pointing out that the CEOs and board members are paid such ridiculously large amounts that those salaries and bonuses coul absorb much of the cost of taxes going up intead of piling it all on the consumer.

 

Why didn't you call it "class warfare" when Reagan cut taxes on the wealthiest which has cause the greatest income and wealth disparity since the 1700s ?


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 35 of 110

@rk9152 wrote:

@umbarch64 wrote:

@rk9152  You are not wrong....however...the taxes passed on may not reflect the actual costs a jurisdictions tax base pays for producing a product. You with me there?  IF that's the case, that 'excess' cost will be paid by someone else in the tax chain. It doesn't get passed on. That's a subsidy of sorts, even if it is not called that. 

 

Your point appears self-evident and expandable.  It isn't.  Accepting it literally would lead to a false conclusion that all taxes are reflected in the price of the product.  They are not.   Again...you are not wrong.  

 

Regarding complexity...complexity facilitates manipulation.  It should not be so, but it is. Laws and credits and exemptions et al are complex for purpose...none of it good.


I agree with a lot of the above but not the part of taxes not included in the price. Once established, a company has cash inflow and cash outflow. The outflow (including taxes) is funded by inflow (that paid by the consumer). I can't imagine where else the money comes from

 

This is a good exercise.  Let's try this. The end consumer pays all the taxes associated with a product he uses in the price of the product.  Agreed.  

 

The end consumer almost certainly does not live in all the jurisdiction[s] dropping a tax into the cost he personally pays for the product. He must be paying a pass thru tax assessed ostensibly to pay costs for fire, roads, sewer, water, schools etc....the infrastructure stuff...in a jurisdiction[s] not his own. We've agreed the product producer pays none of this in any case, even though he uses them to support and operate his business.

 

Now assume the product itself is not sold at all in the producers home jurisdiction so none of the tax collected at product sale goes into the home jurisdiction coffers for their own infrastructure...the taxes actually go elsewhere. Where would that be?  Who actually pays for the infrastructure required to produce the product? 

 

See...I have trouble following myself through all this stuff.  I can only imagine how it must be for someone trying to follow what I'm trying to say.  I think I'm mostly right, but I sure could be mistaken about some stuff...and that's fer dang sure.

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 36 of 110

This whole thing keeps going around in circles--seems Although much more simply, I said the same thing last week when I suggested we cut the lewd outrageous payments execs. Good idea to get rid of  ridicuous retirement packages too.  No one,  should be exempt from taxes, and to exclude businesses is ridiculous. I have a small business, and i pay my taxes, shich i am proud and happy to do. Ugh! Honestly, how many times do we have to say the same things over and over again???

Gee, I miss having a real President!!
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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 37 of 110

The tired and threadbare Republican Mantra that taxing Corporations always cost the consumer more is balderdash.  If there was an ounce of truth in that canard, then the companies that pay NO tax would have a huge price advantage over the ones that get stuck paying 20 or 25%, but IT NEVER HAPPENS. Having a tax WITHOUT LOOPHOLES levels the playing field, and what we have today simply shovels more money into senior management of the companies who find ways to pay nothing, and the consurer pays the corporations missing tax

 

In the 1960's HALF of Federal Income Tax revenue came from Corporations. Today the figure is less than 20% and you, dear consumer, are making up the missing 30%, AND paying the Corporate taxes.

 

The ACTUAL effective rate paid by American Corporations is 12.6%, slightly lower than the 12.7% corporations in the EU are paying. Now that's the AVERAGE, so some are paying 20-25% while others pay NOTHING. There is NO 10-15% price differential, nor are their significantly higher dividends paid by the companies paying below the average, so it is obvious all the money is going for obscene compensation packages for senior management, NOT back to the consumer in lower prices nor to the owners in higher dividends.

 

If you want tax reform WITHOUT shoveling more money from the middle to the top, change the rate to 15% and eliminate ALL loopholes. That way Companies can concentrate on making better products and save all that money they now spend hiring slithery lawyers who find ways to cheat legally.

 

 

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 38 of 110
rker posted..

I imagine that they set a goal in their pricing by which they already know the amount of profit per widget.
I believe that problem begins when companies decide that they should have more profits than what they thought they could get. and as far as they can get their price they will try and sell for that.

================================================

In our great country under the private sector we have a free market system and under that we have competition and its the customer that determines the price of a item or service.

No one is forced to shop at a store ... if people do not shop at a particular store, car dealer, etc they will close ..be it they pay taxes or not.

Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid..there are good reasons for that...its our tax laws. The its been for as long as we have income taxes and it will stay be it under Republicans or Democrats.

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 39 of 110

I believe that we all agree that any company that produces a Widget. will apply all costs associated with their product up to the point of selling that product to the counsumer. And yes, they will attach anything that is legally to attach to the cost of the widget, because they have to be very sure that they know what their profit happens to be.

I imagine that they set a goal in their pricing by which they already know the amount of profit per widget. 
I believe that problem begins when companies decide that they should have more profits than what they thought they could get. and as far as they can get their price they will try and sell for that.

Yes, in a way to look at is is actually double taxation. the consumer is taxed when they buy the product and then pay taxes also when they take it home.

for me the proper image of any corporation is the Cookie Monster, the figure that will gobble anything in sight, without guilt or responsibility for its actions.

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 40 of 110

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

rk9152 wrote"And this is the last time I am going to explain that the issue is not what motivates the consumer to buy. It is not a matter whether or not consumers have a choice. It is much simpler than that - taxes paid are a cost of doing business and are reflected in the price - hence, the consumer pays the taxes (albeit indirectly)."

 

You are forcing consumers to support companies even if they are not buying their products.  It is a matter of choice, whether you want to ackowledge or not.


Let's try to boil this down it the basics. I believe that any taxes a company pays comes from it's cash inflow. The cash inflow comes from the customers. Ergo, it really is the customers money that is paying the taxes.

 

Can we agree on that?


So why do you expect me to support a company whos products I choose not to buy.  The end customer should be paying the full cost of the product and not expecting it to be subsidized in the free market.

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