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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 51 of 110

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

rk9152 wrote "How does a corporation "pay it's fair share" when they are merely passing the cost to the consumer and, in effect, just acting as a tax collection agency for the government?  It comes down to the user of the end service paying the full cost for it and not expecting others to supplement the cost of what they are consuming.

Exactly, they pay the full cost including all that goes into bringing that product to market - including the taxes.

 

The citizens ARE paying those taxes but being fooled with all this foolishness by the pols claiming they are going to make the corporations pay.  They are not being fooled by having to pay a price that fully reflects all of the costs.  They always have a choice of what and how much to buy.  You do not have a choice with the taxes you are paying.

Exactly - once you have shopped around and decided where to buy the product, the price you pay includes the taxes they will end up paying. 

 

I notice you didn't bother to comment on my question about personal choice.

Of course I did - "How does a corporation "pay it's fair share" when they are merely passing the cost to the consumer and, in effect, just acting as a tax collection agency for the government?".


Because not everybody consumes their goods and services equally.


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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 52 of 110

@sp362 wrote:

rk9152 wrote "How does a corporation "pay it's fair share" when they are merely passing the cost to the consumer and, in effect, just acting as a tax collection agency for the government?  It comes down to the user of the end service paying the full cost for it and not expecting others to supplement the cost of what they are consuming.

Exactly, they pay the full cost including all that goes into bringing that product to market - including the taxes.

 

The citizens ARE paying those taxes but being fooled with all this foolishness by the pols claiming they are going to make the corporations pay.  They are not being fooled by having to pay a price that fully reflects all of the costs.  They always have a choice of what and how much to buy.  You do not have a choice with the taxes you are paying.

Exactly - once you have shopped around and decided where to buy the product, the price you pay includes the taxes they will end up paying. 

 

I notice you didn't bother to comment on my question about personal choice.

Of course I did - "How does a corporation "pay it's fair share" when they are merely passing the cost to the consumer and, in effect, just acting as a tax collection agency for the government?".


 

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 53 of 110

@rk9152 wrote:

@umbarch64 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

Skip the class warfare and stick to the basics. Taxes are a cost of doing business therefore included in the price charged. Hence, the consumer pays them.


True, but only partly. When the business doesn't pay costs incurred at the location of that business, those costs are absorbed somewhere else by some one else.  There's more to it than that, but for simplicity, let's leave it at that. 

Again, someone else already is - the consumer.

 

Yes...that is so, but the consumer can be anywhere in the world and their contribution to the 'chain' doesn't go to defray the cost imposed elsewhere.  You have an extremely valid point...it is not yet completed.

 

The 'business' draws needed service[s].  Those services may be needed everywhere its product is financed, manufactured, marketed sold or used.  Cost to the public is almost never fully recovered by the public at any of those places.  'You guys' can chase the rabbit down this hole forever and never catch him. 

You may be right. But it happens so much that there has to be some logic behind it. 

 

Of course there is.  It is quite rational too.  IF you can get someone else to pick up the tab it doesn't come out of yours.  Now...IF you can charge the same amount as you usually do for your product and don't HAVE to reduce the price paid by the consumer, why would you?  Just puts MORE money in your pocket, somebody else gets stuck with the tab and that's good business.  "the donald" would call that 'making a good deal'.  You've got a point...it isn't completed.

 

Example:....an analysis, done so long ago I no longer have it in my files, showed NO skyscraper pays or has ever paid the full cost of the services it requires from the jurisdiction where it is located, back to the jurisdiction where it is located.  That means the taxpayer subsidizes that thing, whether or not the taxpayer know it.   Most don't.   It never shows up on the books that way.  This is something you have to think about yourself, probably for quite awhile, so you can argue with yourself along the way and not with me. I've been there, done that.  It's your turn.

Again, you may be right. I have no idea why they do that. The one that really gets me is sports venues. Those teams are making big bucks, why does the city have to underwrite the new stadium?

 

Well...as to why "they" do that, the answer is because "they" can.   Jusrisdiction, as I used the term, doesn't stop at "city".  The impacts extend as far as support costs do...even into the next county or next state or even 500 miles downsteam as the case might be.  Any support required by any occupant for any reason introduces an added cost to the equation. It is  possible somebody in Texas pays part of the tab for Trump Tower. 

 

Sports venues get by with it because they 'provide' what the People 'want' and will 'pay money for'.  The City underwrites because the citizens are convinced they 'want' it.  Usually the 'sell' includes a representation that it will benefit the community through increased business revenue and reduced taxes of some sort.  The 'promise' says it won't cost what it ends up costing ...by  the time that becomes apparent, it is too late to kill it. ..too much invested and too much to lose. The venue hedges its bet and the Citizen takes the risk.  Part of the promise is increased revenue for business and perhaps reduced taxes for citizens in the jurisdiction, which almost never happens.  I think you may have noticed that.

When the "owners' have milked it for as much as is possible, they sell, but the proceeds are not shared with the jurisdiction that funded the venture.  Good business, donchasee?  

By the way...I think this kind of dialogue does serve to inform and educate...thank you.

 

All this could be analyzed correctly using our current technology.  That's not where the problem is at all.  The problem 'lies' elsewhere...  I'll leave it at that.


 


 

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 54 of 110

rk9152 wrote "How does a corporation "pay it's fair share" when they are merely passing the cost to the consumer and, in effect, just acting as a tax collection agency for the government?  It comes down to the user of the end service paying the full cost for it and not expecting others to supplement the cost of what they are consuming.

 

The citizens ARE paying those taxes but being fooled with all this foolishness by the pols claiming they are going to make the corporations pay.  They are not being fooled by having to pay a price that fully reflects all of the costs.  They always have a choice of what and how much to buy.  You do not have a choice with the taxes you are paying.

 

I notice you didn't bother to comment on my question about personal choice.

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 55 of 110
rk9152 wrote:
pc6063 wrote:

If teachers, waiters, factory workers, etc., all pay taxes to support school systems and local municipalities, why is ok that businesses--large or small don't?   When businesses don't pay their fair share of taxes, the costs of running the above, fall to the little guys--you and me.  Just a way for the rich to get richer on the backs of the little people.

 

Because, when a teacher pays taxes - the teacher pays taxes. When a company pays taxes - the consumer actually pays those taxes.

Not Exactly

 

When a Teacher pays taxes - the Teachers taxes are based upon what the Tax Payers in the Teachers School District think the value of what the Education the Teacher is Teaching their kids is worth

 

When a company pays taxes - those taxes are based on the costs the Company has to charge the Consumer for producing the Product or Service - plus a exorbitant profit - but most importantly the additional fees charged to the Consumer so that the Company can increase the dividends payment to each shareholder and artificially inflate the companies share prices

 

Most successful companies eventually find themselves generating more cash than they can reasonably reinvest in their businesses at attractive returns on capital. Even in the wake of the recent recession, investors are pressuring companies to distribute a mountain of cash they’ve accumulated in the past few years. In fact, European and US companies currently hold a total of around $2 trillion in excess cash.1

 

Consider this example: a company earning $1 billion a year in after-tax profits, with a 25 percent return on invested capital (ROIC) and projected revenue growth of 5 percent a year, needs to invest about $200 million annually2 to continue growing at the same rate. That leaves $800 million of additional cash flow available for still more investment or returning to shareholders.3 Yet finding $800 million of new value-creating investment opportunities every year is no simple task—in any sector of the economy. Furthermore, at a 25 percent ROIC, the company would need to increase its revenues by 25 percent a year to absorb all of its cash flow. It has no choice but to return a substantial amount of cash to shareholders

 

Source - http://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/strategy-and-corporate-finance/our-insights/paying-back-y...

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 56 of 110

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@rker321 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@pc6063 wrote:

If teachers, waiters, factory workers, etc., all pay taxes to support school systems and local municipalities, why is ok that businesses--large or small don't?   When businesses don't pay their fair share of taxes, the costs of running the above, fall to the little guys--you and me.  Just a way for the rich to get richer on the backs of the little people.

 


Because, when a teacher pays taxes - the teacher pays taxes. When a company pays taxes - the consumer actually pays those taxes.


 

The constant fallacy of the corporations and their excuse that when they present consumers with lower priced products they are better off. 
Even Trump has stated and  spoken about the unfairness of companies bringing products into the US and paying no taxes. He would like to impose tarifs to those corporations, Is he wrong now?


I'm not sure of your point. It is my position that companies add taxes into their cost of doing business, and, as such, it is the consumer that really pays the taxes. Are we in agreement???


Not necessarilty. There are many areas within a business where the cost of taxes can be recovered, not just from the consumer.


Expand on that please. Money comes into a company via the sale of it's goods and services. What else do you have in mind? 

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 57 of 110

@umbarch64 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

Skip the class warfare and stick to the basics. Taxes are a cost of doing business therefore included in the price charged. Hence, the consumer pays them.


True, but only partly. When the business doesn't pay costs incurred at the location of that business, those costs are absorbed somewhere else by some one else.  There's more to it than that, but for simplicity, let's leave it at that. 

Again, someone else already is - the consumer.

 

The 'business' draws needed service[s].  Those services may be needed everywhere its product is financed, manufactured, marketed sold or used.  Cost to the public is almost never fully recovered by the public at any of those places.  'You guys' can chase the rabbit down this hole forever and never catch him. 

You may be right. But it happens so much that there has to be some logic behind it. 

 

Example:....an analysis, done so long ago I no longer have it in my files, showed NO skyscraper pays or has ever paid the full cost of the services it requires from the jurisdiction where it is located, back to the jurisdiction where it is located.  That means the taxpayer subsidizes that thing, whether or not the taxpayer know it.   Most don't.   It never shows up on the books that way.  This is something you have to think about yourself, probably for quite awhile, so you can argue with yourself along the way and not with me. I've been there, done that.  It's your turn.

Again, you may be right. I have no idea why they do that. The one that really gets me is sports venues. Those teams are making big bucks, why does the city have to underwrite the new stadium?

 

All this could be analyzed correctly using our current technology.  That's not where the problem is at all.  The problem 'lies' elsewhere...  I'll leave it at that.


 

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 58 of 110

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@KidBoy2 wrote:
If teachers, waiters, factory workers, etc., all pay taxes to support school systems and local municipalities, why is ok that businesses--large or small don't?

====================================================


Businesses might not pay Federal income taxes because they are not making a profit or other reasons but they do pay real estate taxes that support or schools, roads and our police.


What about some of the biggest and most profitable corporations in America not paying any taxes and actually getting subsidies in the $$Millions$$ and $$Billion$$ ?????


Separate issue, start a new topic. In that one I believe we might find a lot to agree on.

 

I say separate issue since it is the consumer actually paying those corporate taxes but the corporations are truly collecting the subsidies.

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 59 of 110

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@pc6063 wrote:

If teachers, waiters, factory workers, etc., all pay taxes to support school systems and local municipalities, why is ok that businesses--large or small don't?   When businesses don't pay their fair share of taxes, the costs of running the above, fall to the little guys--you and me.  Just a way for the rich to get richer on the backs of the little people.

 


Because, when a teacher pays taxes - the teacher pays taxes. When a company pays taxes - the consumer actually pays those taxes.


So then you are saying that companies should not pay taxes ?


So then I'm pretty sure you know that is not what I am saying. And I'm pretty sure you know that I am saying that it is the consumer who actually pays that money.

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Re: Profitable US Companies - No Taxes Paid?

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Message 60 of 110

@rk9152 wrote:

@pc6063 wrote:

 Here's a thought!   maybe the corporation should pay their fair share of taxes and tge  CEOs shouldn't get those huge bonuses and huge salaries. that way the community won't suffer and neither will oeople in the communities.  Your scenario only benefits the rich.   But really that's the Republican way.


Since the taxes are just passed along to the consumer as part of the price of the goods or services purchased, how does that effect bonuses?


Of course it has nothing to do with taxes, and nothing at this time will affect the bonuses that CEO get as compensation, they have become too ingrained in our culture. 
Perhaps what needs to change is the question of "ethics" in all corporations.
How much do they feel that they owe their stockholders in general. and how much they owe their consumers?

Those are the questions that they need to ask themselves.

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