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Re: Presumption of Innocence-Innocent Until Proven Guilty

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Message 1 of 7

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@mickstuder wrote:

 

 

 


 


I haven't Flipped on Anything - Re-read what I posted

 

Using the Innocent Until Proven Guilty Excuse with both Kavanaugh & Kashoggi is Absurd

 

It's not the way reasonable people deal with Reality in their everyday Lives

 

Of course there is no way to Prove or Disprove anything when Trump won't allow a thorough FBI Investigation into either - Kavanaugh or Kashoggi

 

The FBI has not been tasked by Trump to investigate Kashoggi's....... Torture - Murder - Dismemberment

 

Why is that?

 Because they have no authority there.

 


 


But the FBI does have authority here. So why did trump limit that authority and restrict the FBI to interview only three people?


He didn't.

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Re: Presumption of Innocence-Innocent Until Proven Guilty

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Message 2 of 7

@rk9152 wrote:

@mickstuder wrote:

 

 

 


 


I haven't Flipped on Anything - Re-read what I posted

 

Using the Innocent Until Proven Guilty Excuse with both Kavanaugh & Kashoggi is Absurd

 

It's not the way reasonable people deal with Reality in their everyday Lives

 

Of course there is no way to Prove or Disprove anything when Trump won't allow a thorough FBI Investigation into either - Kavanaugh or Kashoggi

 

The FBI has not been tasked by Trump to investigate Kashoggi's....... Torture - Murder - Dismemberment

 

Why is that?

 Because they have no authority there.

 


 


But the FBI does have authority here. So why did trump limit that authority and restrict the FBI to interview only three people?


"The only thing that man learns from history is that man learns nothing from history."
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Re: Presumption of Innocence-Innocent Until Proven Guilty

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Message 3 of 7

Presumption of Innocence-Innocent Until Proven Guilty

 

 

Innocent until you can find some lower level flunky to pin it on, then he's guilty.

 

AKA as Abu Ghraib 2.0 

 

 

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Re: Presumption of Innocence-Innocent Until Proven Guilty

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Message 4 of 7

@mickstuder wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@mickstuder wrote:

Presumption of Innocence - Innocent Until Proven Guilty

 

Trump & The GOP's Newest MEME

 

Does Anyone in Their Everyday Lives - Live by This False Narrative

 

Of Course Not - If you see someone coming out of your front door with your TV - is the First Thing That Pops into your mind - well this person is innocent until proven guilty?

 

The Presumption of Innocence - Innocent Until Proven Guilty is a Criminal Standard used when a person is having their Guilt or Innocence Adjudicated in front of a Judge or Jury

 

It's not the Standard we use in Everyday Life

 

If someone blows a Stop Sign or a Red Light and plows into the Side of your car - no one Steps Back & Says - Well This Person Might Not Have Just Done That

 

It's a Mirage - it's Theatre - it's Poltical Rhetoric - A attempt to Corrupt Serious Law & Order

 

Kavanaugh & Kashoggi

 

In both instances, Trump misapprehends (either actually or for purposes of political expediency) the nature and origin of the concept of presumption of innocence

 

In 1895, the Supreme Court established the applicability of the presumption of innocence for defendants in criminal trials in the case of Coffin v. United States. Ever since, this has been a bedrock principle of our criminal justice system designed to give defendants a fair trial. But even in our criminal justice system, this standard applies only at trial, once a jury has been empaneled to decide a case.

 

This may come as a surprise to many, but with the exception of the trial itself, our court system actually presumes that a person charged with a crime committed the crime with which he is charged.

 

Here’s how it works: To arrest someone, police must have evidence showing “probable cause” that the individual committed a criminal offense. However, there is no presumption of innocence involved when a police officer asks a judge for an arrest warrant. Neither the officer nor the judge is applying a presumption of innocence during this process.

 

Once someone is arrested, the criminal justice system operates on the belief that the person who has been charged with a crime actually committed that crime.

 

This is precisely why prosecutors pursue pre-trial detention and why judges routinely order defendants jailed pending indictment and trial

 

To be sure, prosecutors must satisfy evidentiary showings along the way (probable cause, preponderance of the evidence, clear and convincing evidence, etc.) to keep a defendant jailed pending trial. But in a very real sense, the system presumes the defendant has committed the crime with which he is charged.

 

In other words, the presumption of innocence is a useful fiction designed to give every defendant a fair trial, not some universal principle that guides our everyday lives.

 

It does not, and arguably should not, permeate our culture and existence.

 

Consider the following hypothetical: If an assault victim is standing in the street bleeding from a stab wound and the attacker is running away with a bloody knife in his hand, we don't freeze the scene and say, "well, we have to presume the knife-wielding maniac innocent."

 

Turning back to Trump’s broad application of the presumption of innocence: It has been widely reported that a Saudi Arabian hit squad was dispatched to Turkey to kill Jamal Khashoggi due to his criticism of the Saudi government. The evidence supporting that theory quickly has mounted. According to the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal, the attack on Khashoggi may have been captured on audio or video recordings. Nevertheless, Trump complains that people are deciding that the Saudi government is “guilty until proven innocent.”

 

This substantial evidence, coupled with reports of the crown prince's previous attempts to silence critics, makes it an imminently logical and supportable conclusion that Khashoggi was murdered at the behest of government officials. Of course, if any member of the Saudi government is ever brought to justice in an American courtroom, he will then enjoy a presumption of innocence.

 

Ask Your GOP & Trump Cult Friends

 

If Everyone is Innocent Until Proven Guilty - Explain to me how - Stand Your Ground Works?

 

Source - https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-says-saudi-arabia-innocent-until-proven-guilty-presumpti...

 

 What a strange thing for you to post. After several weeks of claiming that Kavanaugh was guilty until proven innocent, you now flip and, in some strange way, still attack our President.

 

 


 


I haven't Flipped on Anything - Re-read what I posted

 

Using the Innocent Until Proven Guilty Excuse with both Kavanaugh & Kashoggi is Absurd

 

It's not the way reasonable people deal with Reality in their everyday Lives

 

Of course there is no way to Prove or Disprove anything when Trump won't allow a thorough FBI Investigation into either - Kavanaugh or Kashoggi

 

The FBI has not been tasked by Trump to investigate Kashoggi's....... Torture - Murder - Dismemberment

 

Why is that?

 Because they have no authority there.

 


 

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Re: Presumption of Innocence-Innocent Until Proven Guilty

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Message 5 of 7

@rk9152 wrote:

@mickstuder wrote:

Presumption of Innocence - Innocent Until Proven Guilty

 

Trump & The GOP's Newest MEME

 

Does Anyone in Their Everyday Lives - Live by This False Narrative

 

Of Course Not - If you see someone coming out of your front door with your TV - is the First Thing That Pops into your mind - well this person is innocent until proven guilty?

 

The Presumption of Innocence - Innocent Until Proven Guilty is a Criminal Standard used when a person is having their Guilt or Innocence Adjudicated in front of a Judge or Jury

 

It's not the Standard we use in Everyday Life

 

If someone blows a Stop Sign or a Red Light and plows into the Side of your car - no one Steps Back & Says - Well This Person Might Not Have Just Done That

 

It's a Mirage - it's Theatre - it's Poltical Rhetoric - A attempt to Corrupt Serious Law & Order

 

Kavanaugh & Kashoggi

 

In both instances, Trump misapprehends (either actually or for purposes of political expediency) the nature and origin of the concept of presumption of innocence

 

In 1895, the Supreme Court established the applicability of the presumption of innocence for defendants in criminal trials in the case of Coffin v. United States. Ever since, this has been a bedrock principle of our criminal justice system designed to give defendants a fair trial. But even in our criminal justice system, this standard applies only at trial, once a jury has been empaneled to decide a case.

 

This may come as a surprise to many, but with the exception of the trial itself, our court system actually presumes that a person charged with a crime committed the crime with which he is charged.

 

Here’s how it works: To arrest someone, police must have evidence showing “probable cause” that the individual committed a criminal offense. However, there is no presumption of innocence involved when a police officer asks a judge for an arrest warrant. Neither the officer nor the judge is applying a presumption of innocence during this process.

 

Once someone is arrested, the criminal justice system operates on the belief that the person who has been charged with a crime actually committed that crime.

 

This is precisely why prosecutors pursue pre-trial detention and why judges routinely order defendants jailed pending indictment and trial

 

To be sure, prosecutors must satisfy evidentiary showings along the way (probable cause, preponderance of the evidence, clear and convincing evidence, etc.) to keep a defendant jailed pending trial. But in a very real sense, the system presumes the defendant has committed the crime with which he is charged.

 

In other words, the presumption of innocence is a useful fiction designed to give every defendant a fair trial, not some universal principle that guides our everyday lives.

 

It does not, and arguably should not, permeate our culture and existence.

 

Consider the following hypothetical: If an assault victim is standing in the street bleeding from a stab wound and the attacker is running away with a bloody knife in his hand, we don't freeze the scene and say, "well, we have to presume the knife-wielding maniac innocent."

 

Turning back to Trump’s broad application of the presumption of innocence: It has been widely reported that a Saudi Arabian hit squad was dispatched to Turkey to kill Jamal Khashoggi due to his criticism of the Saudi government. The evidence supporting that theory quickly has mounted. According to the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal, the attack on Khashoggi may have been captured on audio or video recordings. Nevertheless, Trump complains that people are deciding that the Saudi government is “guilty until proven innocent.”

 

This substantial evidence, coupled with reports of the crown prince's previous attempts to silence critics, makes it an imminently logical and supportable conclusion that Khashoggi was murdered at the behest of government officials. Of course, if any member of the Saudi government is ever brought to justice in an American courtroom, he will then enjoy a presumption of innocence.

 

Ask Your GOP & Trump Cult Friends

 

If Everyone is Innocent Until Proven Guilty - Explain to me how - Stand Your Ground Works?

 

Source - https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-says-saudi-arabia-innocent-until-proven-guilty-presumpti...

 

 What a strange thing for you to post. After several weeks of claiming that Kavanaugh was guilty until proven innocent, you now flip and, in some strange way, still attack our President.

 

 


 


I haven't Flipped on Anything - Re-read what I posted

 

Using the Innocent Until Proven Guilty Excuse with both Kavanaugh & Kashoggi is Absurd

 

It's not the way reasonable people deal with Reality in their everyday Lives

 

Of course there is no way to Prove or Disprove anything when Trump won't allow a thorough FBI Investigation into either - Kavanaugh or Kashoggi

 

The FBI has not been tasked by Trump to investigate Kashoggi's....... Torture - Murder - Dismemberment

 

Why is that?

 

 

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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Re: Presumption of Innocence-Innocent Until Proven Guilty

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Message 6 of 7

@mickstuder wrote:

Presumption of Innocence - Innocent Until Proven Guilty

 

Trump & The GOP's Newest MEME

 

Does Anyone in Their Everyday Lives - Live by This False Narrative

 

Of Course Not - If you see someone coming out of your front door with your TV - is the First Thing That Pops into your mind - well this person is innocent until proven guilty?

 

The Presumption of Innocence - Innocent Until Proven Guilty is a Criminal Standard used when a person is having their Guilt or Innocence Adjudicated in front of a Judge or Jury

 

It's not the Standard we use in Everyday Life

 

If someone blows a Stop Sign or a Red Light and plows into the Side of your car - no one Steps Back & Says - Well This Person Might Not Have Just Done That

 

It's a Mirage - it's Theatre - it's Poltical Rhetoric - A attempt to Corrupt Serious Law & Order

 

Kavanaugh & Kashoggi

 

In both instances, Trump misapprehends (either actually or for purposes of political expediency) the nature and origin of the concept of presumption of innocence

 

In 1895, the Supreme Court established the applicability of the presumption of innocence for defendants in criminal trials in the case of Coffin v. United States. Ever since, this has been a bedrock principle of our criminal justice system designed to give defendants a fair trial. But even in our criminal justice system, this standard applies only at trial, once a jury has been empaneled to decide a case.

 

This may come as a surprise to many, but with the exception of the trial itself, our court system actually presumes that a person charged with a crime committed the crime with which he is charged.

 

Here’s how it works: To arrest someone, police must have evidence showing “probable cause” that the individual committed a criminal offense. However, there is no presumption of innocence involved when a police officer asks a judge for an arrest warrant. Neither the officer nor the judge is applying a presumption of innocence during this process.

 

Once someone is arrested, the criminal justice system operates on the belief that the person who has been charged with a crime actually committed that crime.

 

This is precisely why prosecutors pursue pre-trial detention and why judges routinely order defendants jailed pending indictment and trial

 

To be sure, prosecutors must satisfy evidentiary showings along the way (probable cause, preponderance of the evidence, clear and convincing evidence, etc.) to keep a defendant jailed pending trial. But in a very real sense, the system presumes the defendant has committed the crime with which he is charged.

 

In other words, the presumption of innocence is a useful fiction designed to give every defendant a fair trial, not some universal principle that guides our everyday lives.

 

It does not, and arguably should not, permeate our culture and existence.

 

Consider the following hypothetical: If an assault victim is standing in the street bleeding from a stab wound and the attacker is running away with a bloody knife in his hand, we don't freeze the scene and say, "well, we have to presume the knife-wielding maniac innocent."

 

Turning back to Trump’s broad application of the presumption of innocence: It has been widely reported that a Saudi Arabian hit squad was dispatched to Turkey to kill Jamal Khashoggi due to his criticism of the Saudi government. The evidence supporting that theory quickly has mounted. According to the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal, the attack on Khashoggi may have been captured on audio or video recordings. Nevertheless, Trump complains that people are deciding that the Saudi government is “guilty until proven innocent.”

 

This substantial evidence, coupled with reports of the crown prince's previous attempts to silence critics, makes it an imminently logical and supportable conclusion that Khashoggi was murdered at the behest of government officials. Of course, if any member of the Saudi government is ever brought to justice in an American courtroom, he will then enjoy a presumption of innocence.

 

Ask Your GOP & Trump Cult Friends

 

If Everyone is Innocent Until Proven Guilty - Explain to me how - Stand Your Ground Works?

 

Source - https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-says-saudi-arabia-innocent-until-proven-guilty-presumpti...

 

 What a strange thing for you to post. After several weeks of claiming that Kavanaugh was guilty until proven innocent, you now flip and, in some strange way, still attack our President.

 

 


 

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Presumption of Innocence-Innocent Until Proven Guilty

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Message 7 of 7

Presumption of Innocence - Innocent Until Proven Guilty

 

Trump & The GOP's Newest MEME

 

Does Anyone in Their Everyday Lives - Live by This False Narrative

 

Of Course Not - If you see someone coming out of your front door with your TV - is the First Thing That Pops into your mind - well this person is innocent until proven guilty?

 

The Presumption of Innocence - Innocent Until Proven Guilty is a Criminal Standard used when a person is having their Guilt or Innocence Adjudicated in front of a Judge or Jury

 

It's not the Standard we use in Everyday Life

 

If someone blows a Stop Sign or a Red Light and plows into the Side of your car - no one Steps Back & Says - Well This Person Might Not Have Just Done That

 

It's a Mirage - it's Theatre - it's Poltical Rhetoric - A attempt to Corrupt Serious Law & Order

 

Kavanaugh & Kashoggi

 

In both instances, Trump misapprehends (either actually or for purposes of political expediency) the nature and origin of the concept of presumption of innocence

 

In 1895, the Supreme Court established the applicability of the presumption of innocence for defendants in criminal trials in the case of Coffin v. United States. Ever since, this has been a bedrock principle of our criminal justice system designed to give defendants a fair trial. But even in our criminal justice system, this standard applies only at trial, once a jury has been empaneled to decide a case.

 

This may come as a surprise to many, but with the exception of the trial itself, our court system actually presumes that a person charged with a crime committed the crime with which he is charged.

 

Here’s how it works: To arrest someone, police must have evidence showing “probable cause” that the individual committed a criminal offense. However, there is no presumption of innocence involved when a police officer asks a judge for an arrest warrant. Neither the officer nor the judge is applying a presumption of innocence during this process.

 

Once someone is arrested, the criminal justice system operates on the belief that the person who has been charged with a crime actually committed that crime.

 

This is precisely why prosecutors pursue pre-trial detention and why judges routinely order defendants jailed pending indictment and trial

 

To be sure, prosecutors must satisfy evidentiary showings along the way (probable cause, preponderance of the evidence, clear and convincing evidence, etc.) to keep a defendant jailed pending trial. But in a very real sense, the system presumes the defendant has committed the crime with which he is charged.

 

In other words, the presumption of innocence is a useful fiction designed to give every defendant a fair trial, not some universal principle that guides our everyday lives.

 

It does not, and arguably should not, permeate our culture and existence.

 

Consider the following hypothetical: If an assault victim is standing in the street bleeding from a stab wound and the attacker is running away with a bloody knife in his hand, we don't freeze the scene and say, "well, we have to presume the knife-wielding maniac innocent."

 

Turning back to Trump’s broad application of the presumption of innocence: It has been widely reported that a Saudi Arabian hit squad was dispatched to Turkey to kill Jamal Khashoggi due to his criticism of the Saudi government. The evidence supporting that theory quickly has mounted. According to the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal, the attack on Khashoggi may have been captured on audio or video recordings. Nevertheless, Trump complains that people are deciding that the Saudi government is “guilty until proven innocent.”

 

This substantial evidence, coupled with reports of the crown prince's previous attempts to silence critics, makes it an imminently logical and supportable conclusion that Khashoggi was murdered at the behest of government officials. Of course, if any member of the Saudi government is ever brought to justice in an American courtroom, he will then enjoy a presumption of innocence.

 

Ask Your GOP & Trump Cult Friends

 

If Everyone is Innocent Until Proven Guilty - Explain to me how - Stand Your Ground Works?

 

Source - https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-says-saudi-arabia-innocent-until-proven-guilty-presumpti...

 

 

 

 

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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