Learn how to spot and avoid common scams with AARP's Fraud Resource Center. Try it today!

Reply
Valued Social Butterfly
1
Kudos
312
Views

Re: One big thing people don’t know about single payer ( Medicare-for-All)

312 Views
Message 11 of 66

@GailL1 wrote:

Good Grief, people - ever try to stay on topic?

 

The only thing being discussed here and (my llaughing at are the poll results in my initial thread which came to the conclusion that when asked about a single payer system the polled masses thought it would not affect the coverage they have now.

 

read the link - it is a reputable one -  so I am lead to believe from my friends in the medical stats area.

 

Mr. Altman points out that many in the individual marketplace thought this same thing about Obamacare.  

 

Thus unless people have a problem with their health care coverage - real or perceived, they think any fix for whatever is for the other guy cause theirs is just fine.


So then Gail, if it is OK to laugh at people if they have a misconception ........... then it is OK for all of us to laugh at you if you post a misconception sometime in the future?


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
Report Inappropriate Content
1
Kudos
312
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
2
Kudos
304
Views

Re: One big thing people don’t know about single payer ( Medicare-for-All)

304 Views
Message 12 of 66

@MIseker wrote:

 Please explain why what you pay for your illness SHOULD go to a board of directors ( probably thousands of board members) and why a multitude of CEOS should get rich because they manage to squeeze more profit from the sick? that seems to be your view.


Spot on Mlseker.  That is the question that I want answered.  Some people are afraid that their 'cadillac' insurance plan offers much more than a single payer plan would without ever seeing the single payer plan that we would have. Closed minds have difficulty accepting the reality that they cannot compare their present insurance to a plan that doesn't exist yet.  Our politicians have the opportunity to design a single payer universal health care plan that would cover all Americans just as well as insurance polices do, even the better policies out there. It would cost less per person than premiums do and would eliminate all of the government plans in existence now which cost a fortune in tax dollars to run. People stand against a single payer based on an actual fallacy about what our single payer would be.  It's a fallacy because a single payer doesn't exist here yet to compare to.  HR 676 would be better than what we have today and HR 676 can be improved upon.


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
Report Inappropriate Content
2
Kudos
304
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
304
Views

Re: One big thing people don’t know about single payer ( Medicare-for-All)

304 Views
Message 13 of 66

@johnrmoser wrote:

@john258 wrote:


Iam talking about total health care costs not just insurance cost. 

Yes, the $9,200 number is the cost of provided health care.  Hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, medical equipment manufacturers, labs, and the like make about a 12% profit on average.  $9,200 / 1.12 = $8,200 pre-profits.

 

The average cost of insurance provided to employee-only by an employeor is $6,800, which is lower.

 

I am talking about the total healthcare costs, not the insurance costs at all.  $9,200 is the cost of care without any insurance overhead.


Actually it is higher than $ 9200 per person - the data says $ 10,348 per person in 2016.

CMS ( Research-Statistics-Data and Systems) - National Health Expenditures 2016

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
304
Views
Bronze Conversationalist
0
Kudos
301
Views

Re: One big thing people don’t know about single payer ( Medicare-for-All)

301 Views
Message 14 of 66

@john258 wrote:


Iam talking about total health care costs not just insurance cost. 

Yes, the $9,200 number is the cost of provided health care.  Hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, medical equipment manufacturers, labs, and the like make about a 12% profit on average.  $9,200 / 1.12 = $8,200 pre-profits.

 

The average cost of insurance provided to employee-only by an employeor is $6,800, which is lower.

 

I am talking about the total healthcare costs, not the insurance costs at all.  $9,200 is the cost of care without any insurance overhead.

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
301
Views
Bronze Conversationalist
1
Kudos
311
Views

Re: One big thing people don’t know about single payer ( Medicare-for-All)

311 Views
Message 15 of 66

The average NOP profit running 5 years for healthcare providers and suppliers is around 12%.  For Wendy's it's around 8%.  For luxury goods it's around 22%-30%.

 

You're looking at a cost of maybe $8,200.

 

In Norway, healthcare costs $4,500.  Of course, that healthcare looks kind of like a CDHP with some basic flu shot stuff included.  No prescriptions, no specialty work, nothing.  It's more-expensive in Canada, although they get more healthcare and have a vibrant private system; their prescription medications are cheaper.

 

In the US, it costs $300 million to get a new drug to market; and 90% of drugs fail, most right in clinical trials where they seem fine but the human test subjects complain of uncomfortable side-effects and nobody stays compliant (useless drug).  $3Bn to get a new drug to market!  If it's an ADHD drug, it costs a few hundred a month to make that back; if it's a HepC drug all of 12,000 people might use for one month each year, well good luck recouping that without charging $50,000.

 

We have so many safety regulations around our medical tech, and then we have ahead-of-the-curve medical tech that nobody gets in these cheap healthcare countries.  Republicans like to talk about death panels or waiting lists or other gobbledegook they made up; these are the realities.

 

So if you want $4,500/year healthcare in America, you're looking at denying access to healthcare.  Deny access to more drugs.  Deny more claims.  Make sure people have healthcare access for basic things, but keep them from getting less-basic, more-expensive things.  That's the long and short of it.

 

Good luck figuring out what healthcare really costs.  Some folks argue that Medicare has a hidden tax in that it calculates costs of service below actual cost, and so the prices paid by everyone in the private market go up to make up the difference.  Other folks argue that Medicare doesn't always have the lowest price, because their guesses are wrong.

 

That's cute and all, until you get to the third argument:  the actual government investigation a few years ago into Medicare paying inflated prices due to supposed collusion of providers claiming medical services cost more than they really do, driving up the cost above the market average.

 

Wait until you have no market average baseline against which to compare.  Gonna make so much profit charging inflated prices to the government.

 

We do need to address the big span across which providers charge for the same service; the answer isn't simply magical free market invisible hand or magical single-payer.  It's publicization of data.  Published standards give stronger negotiating power, and publishing that the lower-tier remittance rates among providers who provide a particular service as a core service gives numbers for negotiators to point to and say, "Hey, in this area, people who do what you do charged $195-$215 last year and make bank.  Why you asking for $1,327 now?"

Report Inappropriate Content
1
Kudos
311
Views
Treasured Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
321
Views

Re: One big thing people don’t know about single payer ( Medicare-for-All)

321 Views
Message 16 of 66

TX  don't you think that it is high time that Americans start having some trust in the Federal Government. ?    And if not, then should be more careful for whom the vote, and start by requesting accountability from any politician
It is a very easy  attitude to simply stay I don't trust the government and then going to the voting poll or not going at all and expect to have a  decent government that they can trust.
Responsibility goes both ways.

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
321
Views
Treasured Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
326
Views

Re: One big thing people don’t know about single payer ( Medicare-for-All)

326 Views
Message 17 of 66

@rker321 wrote:

According to Gail, Americans are a lot more stupid than many think they are. she thinks that if a National Health Care system was instituted in this country. people would not understand or even know  the particulars of such a system.


I do think that many Americans are afraid of a government managed health care insurance system. I don't want a National Health Care System myself having been under a goverment run system myself in the miliary and look at the mess with the Veteran's Administration hospitals.

 

I have also been under a government run health INSURANCE system through TRICARE for over 40 years, partially where it was ran like an HMO and in conjunction with Medicare where I was able to choose my own providers.  And I did like being able to walk out of the hospital after lung cancer surgery and an over 20 day stay in the hospital...without paying a huge (or any) medical bill.

 

 

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
326
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
322
Views

Re: One big thing people don’t know about single payer ( Medicare-for-All)

322 Views
Message 18 of 66

@johnrmoser wrote:

@john258 wrote:


 

Lets talk about Health Insurance. You get the cheapest rates when everyone is in the rating pool (100%).

 

[...]

 

Single payer would end the ER Care Care part of the system and return ER care to what it was set up for, and everyone who comes in to the ER would be covered. That would really reduce the taxes that fund that section of care now thus reducing the cost to the full system.

I did my calculations based on healthcare costs in the US, not on health insurance costs.  Insurers pay around $6,800/year for a single employee coverage on average; the per-capita healthcare cost is around $9,200 per 2016.

 

Your conclusion about the risk pool is incorrect because that $9,200 figure I used includes all healthcare administered, and doesn't include the costs of things like insurance overhead.  The risk pool for a single insurer covering 100% of all Americans, then, would produce $9,200/year per American, or $767/month.  We have 70 million Americans without private insurance or Medicare, 50 million of whom are covered by ACA or Medicaid; that's 20 million x $9,200, or $184 billion.

 

About $200 billion to implement a public healthcare option.  For single-payer, it's 323.1 million x $9,200 or $2,972.5 billion minus the current $1,500 billion of Medicare and Medicaid/VA/etc—about $1.5 trillion additional spending over current.

 

A PHO allows you to avoid guessing the correct price of healthcare services, which will fluctuate from provider to provider based on their efficiency at providing each service.  You let a whole bunch of insurers press them for low remittance rates, then pick your numbers from those of the greatest victors.  Otherwise providers, like all government contractors, will find a way to inflate the price and drive up the cost.


I am talking about total health care costs not just insurance cost. The total cost of health care will be less with single payer to the total system as you get rid of the high costs parts such as the ER care section, cut insurance co overhead, etc. Neither you nor I know what  can back up any costs for sure. It is what we think.  Since there is no single payer approach under study now, and there will not be with this president and congress it is really a waste of time to get into a long discussion on it. When we get a new president and congress and start to look at single payer with the experts on the subject leading the way we should all react to what they propose to congress, and president so we get the best health care program as we join the other first world countries in handling this area.

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
322
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
1
Kudos
334
Views

Re: One big thing people don’t know about single payer ( Medicare-for-All)

334 Views
Message 19 of 66

   Long ago, I asked the author of this thread about their concern about ACA.   It was not that many people would gain access to healthcare via insurance access.  Nope, it was a complaint that was singular to them...what if I am  "xyz" and want ( not need) something.     

    That sort of argument is so self-centered that no logic of a bigger picture will probably ever be acceptable to that type of person.    It suggests a pov, just like the Donald admin - he doesn't give two hoots about anyone but himself, well, perhaps "people just like him". 

 

     The Axios article has a bottom line:   The bottom line: There is no sweeping health reform plan without tradeoffs, as we learned with both the ACA and the Republican repeal-and-replace plans. The fact that so many people don't know that a national health plan would require them to change their insurance arrangements underscores the challenge of making the transition from a popular idea to a reality for a single-payer national health plan.

 

      The Republicans in DC are attempting to sell a tax plan that will deliver a short term tax break to part of the workers in the US a whoopping $ 335 / year...for a few years.     Now before anyone gets their tidy whitey's bunched,  that results in about $6.50 / week and we do know that a similar tax cut was essentially not noticed.     Somehow that is okay?    

 

       So yes, a change is always a challenge, and some people seem to believe that they are so special that anything that disrupts their life is bad if they can't control it...so they whine and complain.   Most people are more flexible than complainers...ask the millions who have signed up and benefited from ACA plan.   

      Reminder:   millions of Americans successfully transitioned to Medicare.   So change, the big scarey bug a boo, was managed / accepted by the group that are the most set in their ways...hmmmmmm.     

PRO-LIFE is Affordable Healthcare for ALL .
Report Inappropriate Content
1
Kudos
334
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
1
Kudos
351
Views

Re: One big thing people don’t know about single payer ( Medicare-for-All)

351 Views
Message 20 of 66

@rker321 wrote:

According to Gail, Americans are a lot more stupid than many think they are. she thinks that if a National Health Care system was instituted in this country. people would not understand or even know  the particulars of such a system. I guess she must think that we all live in Alabama.

If a National Health Care system would be instituted in this country. we would all ALL  be part of that system and NOT just the ones that would care to embrace  it.

And yes, private insurances would also offer the benefits that they would like to offer and people would probably buy into whatever they are offering and pay whatever they want to pay for those benefits. But, ALL AMERICANS    would have a basic health care system that would be  sustained by all of us.  
Sorry, GAil you need to go to Alabama to sell your plan.


Thank you, rker321, for telling me what I think -

Just look at what you have learned about your government health care coverage in the last few months.  How long have you been on Medicare?  Thank goodness you were given a choice of another Medicare Adv. provider to get out of your quandary.  And the good thing is, if the new one doesn't work out to satisfaction, you can change again and again.

 

What if under a single payer system, something that you need or think you need isn't covered or isn't covered in the scope you feel is appropriate under the whatever basic coverage included.  You would not be able to switch plans.

 

This thread isn't just about my opinion, it is about what was revealed in the poll.

The majority of people in the poll think a single payer system is a good idea, but a fair number of them think that they would be able to keep their own plan.

 

It was pointed out in the article by Mr. Altman that this view is no different than what many thought about Obamacare.  

 

john258 thinks that under a single payer system, his employer would still provide his retirement supplemental insurance - why would his employer do that when most likely they would be paying taxes for revenue financing for the single payer system. OR do you think employers will reap the cost benefits and the taxation will be left to the individuals?  If such a supplemental plan was offered under a single payer system, as a private option for those who could afford it, wouldn't you think that the scope of such coverage would be unique to the single payer plan design and would it be the responsibility of the individual themselves to pick and pay for such a plan?  It is not legislated anywhere in Medicare that one must have a supplemental plan and it wouldn't be under a single payer system either - it would be a possible option if allowed by the single payer system.

 

If a single payer system was developed here, do you think that people would be able to keep their current plan - whatever that might be?  In other words, what the poll revealed about a rather large percentage of people who favor a single payer system - goo idea but I will be able to keep my plan - according to the poll.  Would they keep their:

Employer coverage

Union coverage

Federal Employee Health coverage

Retiree coverage

Private healthcare coverage

TriCare

Medicare - original

Medicare Advantage

Medicaid

CHAMPVA

 

We all know your opinion of your neighbors including folks in Alabama - negative to say the least.  However,I don't think in the regards to health care coverage, knowledge and policy, no part of America is smarter than the rest.

 

Your neighbor on the other side is Mississippi - what do you think of them since you seem to be able to sum up whole populations even without a poll.

You did say you moved there for economic reasons and I bet it is still favorable for that reason.

 

 

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
Report Inappropriate Content
1
Kudos
351
Views
cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
Users
Announcements

Are you new to the online community? Say Hi and tell us a bit about yourself, your interests, and how we can help make this community a great experience for you!


close-up group of seniors smiling at camera

Top Authors