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Re: Men, Women and Sexual Harassment

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Message 21 of 27

@Epster wrote:

Excellent points, Epster (I so wanna call you Eppy for some reason)....

So here's my overarching thought: in this national conversation we are having, we need to work out once and for all some sort of standard so that everyone knows the 'new legal' definition of sexual harassment.  Agreed, clarity solves many issues as the term has broadened over the last ? years.... All sides, all sexual identities, nobody left out and wondering what's the what. Sort of like the rules of the sexual road, or the rules of the multi-use trail. Again, agreed!

 

In talking with male friends about this issue and these recent harassment allegations, I find that there is considerable confusion as to what, exactly, crosses the line. So we need to talk it out until that line is clearly visible.  Again, agreed.  Question, is the line a "fixed line" or does it change from person to person?  For example, it seems at times what is "across the line" for one woman, may not be "across the line" with another.

 

For me, an assertive lass, who was blessed (cough, cough) with a big mouth and the moxie to back that up, lol  "you go, girl!"  part of this is in reeducating women about the need to communicate their position with strength and clarity. Certainly easier for someone with a solid sense of self and confidence. You are indeed, blessed. the other, equally important, part is that men need to be reeducated regarding the subtle and not so subtle behaviors of abuse and harassment.  Again, great point!  Though, IMO, many, not most, but many men have difficulties with subtlety.....that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  lol  But seriously, body language should be mandatory in high school health classes for guyz.  I can tell you that being assertive has not always kept me free of the sexual harassment experience. (And, as noted, it has ushered in a whole lot of abuse of the non-sexual variety.)  Smiley Mad

 

I'm glad for where we are as a nation, and I'm proud of the people here that keep talking this out.  I hate to agree with you so much here, but I must.  It's exciting to see this social change finally occur....hopefully it will be more fruitful than the opportunity we Americans missed to make solid changes in addressing racism.  For me personally, I have witnessed what we now call "sexual harassment" many times, been sexual harassed myself, been accused of sexual harassment, terminated several sexual harasser's and enjoy the discussions. In social circles, whenever possible, I'm still asking women if they think "cat-calling" is sexual harassment....it's never been something I've ever considered before and though I disagreed, I really appreciate the poster raising that point.  Although I've never "cat-called" before, I must admit, similar thoughts/words have crossed my mind, but I'd never say them out loud.  More exchanges, better understanding, deeper resolve: these things will serve us well.  Can I get an A-MEN!!! From the congregation?

 

btw, do you or others here find the phrase, "you go, girl" offensive?


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Re: Men, Women and Sexual Harassment

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Message 22 of 27

So here's my overarching thought: in this national conversation we are having, we need to work out once and for all some sort of standard so that everyone knows the 'new legal' definition of sexual harassment. All sides, all sexual identities, nobody left out and wondering what's the what. Sort of like the rules of the sexual road, or the rules of the multi-use trail. 

 

In talking with male friends about this issue and these recent harassment allegations, I find that there is considerable confusion as to what, exactly, crosses the line. So we need to talk it out until that line is clearly visible.

 

For me, an assertive lass, who was blessed (cough, cough) with a big mouth and the moxie to back that up, part of this is in reeducating women about the need to communicate their position with strength and clarity. The other, equally important, part is that men need to be reeducated regarding the subtle and not so subtle behaviors of abuse and harassment. I can tell you that being assertive has not always kept me free of the sexual harassment experience. (And, as noted, it has ushered in a whole lot of abuse of the non-sexual variety.)

 

I'm glad for where we are as a nation, and I'm proud of the people here that keep talking this out.  More exchanges, better understanding, deeper resolve: these things will serve us well. 

 

 

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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Re: Men, Women and Sexual Harassment

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Message 23 of 27

@Snoopy48 wrote:

@NerdyMom wrote:

I disagree that there was no power differential.  Franken is much larger and stronger than her.   And there was definitely a power differential when she was asleep.  

 

I understand what Engler is trying to say, though.  I was very naive when I hit the working world, and had no idea men acted like this.  I admired other women who could verbally put men in their place.   My gut reaction was physical, and I clobbered and slapped more than a few men.  I guess I needed to learn to use my words better.   Smiley Happy 

 

I'm not sure why my mother didn't teach me how to handle that stuff.   She was subjected to it, too.   I have taught my daughters how to keep themselves safe.  And to speak up for themselves.  But I've put in a lot of time with my son, too, teaching him boundaries and consent.    I've also taught him (and my daughters, but I think he is more likely to see bad things) to stand up for the victim when he sees something going wrong.    A lot of men just stand silently by and do nothing......

 

 


Many women in the 1950s were expected to be all supportive to the men in their life and to not make waves. As more women became career women they have learned to be more assertive in protecting themselves and their rights.

 

What you have taught your children is what needs to be more widely disseminated. I think that this should be taught in schools from Kindergarten to College.


@Snoopy48   Yes, the carriage returns fixed the issue. Thanks!

 

Just a fast note to you about a quibble I'm having with one of your words, that being learned. We learned to be assertive? We fought for the right and are even now fighting for that right. Smiley Happy

 

I grew up being shamed for wearing jeans. Men, I was told, wore pants. Women who wanted to get married did not. There was enormous pressure for me to conform to somebody else's idea of what I should be. And we were just talking about the jeans of a young girl. You should have heard some of the conversations when I announced that I was not going to be a parent. Holy smokes you'd have thought I betrayed my country. The pressure for a woman to be meek and mild a to not make waves continues to be enormous. I have felt such pressure even here, on these boards as inconsequential as they are in the scheme of things. The problems are so much larger and pervasive than women asserting themselves. 

 

Whoops ... sorry, how I do rattle on ... gotta go ... movie night. Smiley Happy

 

Epster, quite happily assertive, and knowing that that does not make for popularity, therefore also knowing that not everyone can/will do it

 

 

 

 

 

 

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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Re: Men, Women and Sexual Harassment

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Message 24 of 27

@NerdyMom wrote:

I disagree that there was no power differential.  Franken is much larger and stronger than her.   And there was definitely a power differential when she was asleep.  

 

I understand what Engler is trying to say, though.  I was very naive when I hit the working world, and had no idea men acted like this.  I admired other women who could verbally put men in their place.   My gut reaction was physical, and I clobbered and slapped more than a few men.  I guess I needed to learn to use my words better.   Smiley Happy 

 

I'm not sure why my mother didn't teach me how to handle that stuff.   She was subjected to it, too.   I have taught my daughters how to keep themselves safe.  And to speak up for themselves.  But I've put in a lot of time with my son, too, teaching him boundaries and consent.    I've also taught him (and my daughters, but I think he is more likely to see bad things) to stand up for the victim when he sees something going wrong.    A lot of men just stand silently by and do nothing......

 

 


Many women in the 1950s were expected to be all supportive to the men in their life and to not make waves. As more women became career women they have learned to be more assertive in protecting themselves and their rights.

 

What you have taught your children is what needs to be more widely disseminated. I think that this should be taught in schools from Kindergarten to College.

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Message 25 of 27

I disagree that there was no power differential.  Franken is much larger and stronger than her.   And there was definitely a power differential when she was asleep.  

 

I understand what Engler is trying to say, though.  I was very naive when I hit the working world, and had no idea men acted like this.  I admired other women who could verbally put men in their place.   My gut reaction was physical, and I clobbered and slapped more than a few men.  I guess I needed to learn to use my words better.   Smiley Happy 

 

I'm not sure why my mother didn't teach me how to handle that stuff.   She was subjected to it, too.   I have taught my daughters how to keep themselves safe.  And to speak up for themselves.  But I've put in a lot of time with my son, too, teaching him boundaries and consent.    I've also taught him (and my daughters, but I think he is more likely to see bad things) to stand up for the victim when he sees something going wrong.    A lot of men just stand silently by and do nothing......

 

 

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Re: Men, Women and Sexual Harassment

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Message 26 of 27

@Snoopy48  Perhaps it's just me, but your text runs off to the right side of the screen, underneath the sidebar and just keeps a'goin' off the edge of the screen.

 

I thought maybe I would be able to read your post by clicking reply. I thought perhaps that would fix the margins, but no. Smiley Sad

 

All I can say, then, is that this is an important, overdue, national conversation and I'm glad we're getting to it. Well, that and I wish I could read your post. Smiley Happy

 

 

 

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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Men, Women and Sexual Harassment

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Message 27 of 27

I read a diary from a lady named Tina Engler on Daily Kos and would like to hear other's thoughts on what she said as to the actions and responsibilities of men and women.

 

"Women

Perhaps it's because of my rough beginnings and things I've been through in life, but I am

very much going to tell a man when/if he is making me uncomfortable -- an act that is

always met with profuse and sincere apology. Yes, the man feels embarrassed and no I

do not enjoy the feeling of embarrassing another human being, but sometimes you have

to put on your big girl panties and have those icky moments. It's called being an adult.

 

I've watched many female friends uncomfortably smile or give their fake laugh when they

receive unwanted male attention. How does this help? It doesn't, obviously. He has

learned nothing and she leaves the situation feeling disempowered. Big girl panties are

a good thing -- wear a pair. Keep several back-ups laundered and ready to go.

 

Life is not comfortable. Life is one long string of icky moments broken up by wonderful

moments. Self-empowerment? That's a wonderful moment.

 

Men

I can't count how many representatives from the land of XY Chromosomes dumbly think

that smiling at them -- hell even just being nice to them -- is woman-code for oh yeah come

get this, big daddy. (Spoiler alert: it'[s not.) It's long past time to give the old brain a workout

and look for behavioral cues that will give you a better idea of how you are making a woman

feel.

 

Leaning in toward you: good sign. Shifting her body away from you in the slightest: bad sign.

Being very interested in what you're saying even if it's boring and stupid: good sign. Finding

reasons to talk to anyone but you: bad sign. Her gaze lingers when your eyes meet: good

sign. Her gaze averts or avoids yours even if she offers you a polite smile before doing

so: bad sign."

 

 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/11/16/1716419/-Analysis-Jake-Tapper-s-Interview-with-Sen-Frank...

 

---

I think the actions she suggests for women could go a long way to halting (or at least

reducing) sexual harassment but I also see that doing like she suggests goes against

what children are too often taught growing up. Also, if the man has the ability to negatively

affect her job that could make it even harder to speak bluntly.

 

 I think that he suggestions for men are a start but they could also go a lot further. It

should not be difficult to determine that someone is not interested in your actions.

Parents should be teaching their sons from early life how to be a gentleman and not

force their attentions on others.

 

 

It seems to me that the more prestige a man has the more they think that they

should be able to expect women to accept any advance the man choses to make.

 

(I put carriage returns in, hopefully that makes it readable. )

 

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