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Re: Just how TOLERANT are Christians to be?

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Message 121 of 262

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@jk21308835 wrote:
Welcome to the forum, "JK".  You make several good points, IMO, but in regards to this comment:

While I support the notion of universal anti-discrimination, I'm not so supportive of government intervention into a private business' right to choose who they do and don't serve - providing nobody's Constitutional rights are being violated.

 

That's the rub....when this topic was posted it WAS in response to someone's Constitutional rights being violated.  And that's why the government "stepped in" (it?).

 

Post on, my friend.  Post on....


I had to go back to the original post to be sure, here's how it read:

 

Are Christians suppose to change their belief in order to satisfy the gay community?

 

I assume the OP posed this question in response to a particular incident or court case, but could find no direct reference. My post addressed a later one that caught my eye. If I'm wrong about the civil rights aspect, I'll gladly stand corrected. Could elaborate a bit on that? Much obliged.

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Re: Just how TOLERANT are Christians to be?

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Message 122 of 262

jk21308835

Personally, I am not sure what you are talking about - can you give any specifics?

 

The other thing is posting so that your comments are understood -

You can use the "QUOTE" function and then edit in only what you are commenting on, if not the whole post.

 

You can use " "  but you must separate your comments in some method - maybe color - from those of the comment for another to which you are addressing.

 

Yes, Welcome to the P & CE board - but just want to make sure we have an understandable conversation. 

* * * * * * It’s Always Something - Roseanne Rosannadanna
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Re: Just how TOLERANT are Christians to be?

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Message 123 of 262

@Olderscout66 wrote:

sorry, but I cannot buy the notion that you should be allowed to discriminate if you have enough money, which is exactly what you're proposing by saying people should be able to decide who they do business with if they own the business.

 

-I do not agree with that notion at all. Sorry if I failed to make that clear. People with abundant wealth can pretty much do anything they want to - laws are no impediment to them. I'm referrring primarily to the average Joe/Jane just trying to eke out a living and a better life.

 

Images of Lestor Maddox chasing off black customers with his pickax handles are NOT what I get when I think about America, and I don't want that to become the image my kids and grandkids or the rest of the World conjurs up when they think of us.

 

-Right on - neither do I. Didn't I qualify my statement by the mention of bodily harm?

 

You do business with "the public" then you do business with ALL "the public" or you don't do business at all...

 

-This is the only point I take issue with. Not on moral or fairness grounds, but because of the absoluteness of the premise. If 100% of businesses were required to serve 100% of customers, I'm concerned we'd end up with too much federal control over who can and cannot open an enterprise. Historically, this hurts the less-advantaged more than the privileged. And. of course, it also diminishes market forces - a major component in a level playing field. That's one reason we don't have an abundance of Neo-Nazi bookstores or Anti-Semitic political action groups. The market just isn't there, the people have spoken. Please don't equate this notion with underground hate groups or secret societies with onerous agendas. The system could always use some improvement, I'm only saying let's think it through before embarking on any radical departure. Thanks for listeneing.


 

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Re: Just how TOLERANT are Christians to be?

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Message 124 of 262

sorry, but I cannot buy the notion that you should be allowed to discriminate if you have enough money, which is exactly what you're proposing by saying people should be able to decide who they do business with if they own the business.

 

Images of Lestor Maddox chasing off black customers with his pickax handles are NOT what I get when I think about America, and I don't want that to become the image my kids and grandkids or the rest of the World conjurs up when they think of us.

 

You do business with "the public" then you do business with ALL "the public" or you don't do business at all. It took 200+ years to get that figured out regarding black customers, a shade less for Jewish customers and we do NOT need that long a "learning curve" for LGBT customers. Our National motto was E Pluribus Unum, not Droit de seigneur.

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Re: Just how TOLERANT are Christians to be?

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Message 125 of 262

@jk21308835 wrote:

While I support the notion of universal anti-discrimination, I'm not so supportive of government intervention into a private business' right to choose who they do and don't serve - providing nobody's Constitutional rights are being violated. I've been to several countries outside the US over the years, and I can tell you that, for all our faults, this is still one of the most tolerant - if not downright accomodating - country on the planet regarding issues like religious freedom. If you don't truly believe that, try the alternatives. Lemme know how that works out.

 

If we start a trend of legislating all aspects of any law-abiding business, eventually we end up with nationalized mercantilism. I've lived in countries like that, and I'd much rather prefer the American model. Let the market decide which businesses succeed or fail. As a business model, the federal gov't is quite lacking (I'm being kind).

 

Please don't get me wrong - there are cases where uncle Sammy should step in and possibly introduce improved legislation. Let's just not get carried away and end up tossing out the baby in the process. Who among us honestly believes that we don't have enough laws? Lawyers excluded, of course.


Seems to me that is already covered -

What you do for one, you must do for another -

Your "out" decision is in what you do for anybody / everybody - all or nothing.

That is the basis of any discrimination determination for businesses and individuals by the Justice Dept.

However, there are a few exceptions in regards to renting depending upon the types of units and other special circumstances.  But here again, these have to be exercised with caution unless Federal law (Fair Housing) is specified in some of these circumstances.

 

* * * * * * It’s Always Something - Roseanne Rosannadanna
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Re: Just how TOLERANT are Christians to be?

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Message 126 of 262

@jk21308835 wrote:
Welcome to the forum, "JK".  You make several good points, IMO, but in regards to this comment:

While I support the notion of universal anti-discrimination, I'm not so supportive of government intervention into a private business' right to choose who they do and don't serve - providing nobody's Constitutional rights are being violated.

 

That's the rub....when this topic was posted it WAS in response to someone's Constitutional rights being violated.  And that's why the government "stepped in" (it?).

 

Post on, my friend.  Post on....

 


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Re: Just how TOLERANT are Christians to be?

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Message 127 of 262

While I support the notion of universal anti-discrimination, I'm not so supportive of government intervention into a private business' right to choose who they do and don't serve - providing nobody's Constitutional rights are being violated. The civil rights laws passed in the 60s were not imposed to restrict business, but to prevent bodily harm. Anyone who lived down there can attest to that. But, it took a lot of deliberation and backlash before the laws produced the intended result. I have no problem there. Laws should be not be passed without serious consideration of the consequences.

 

I've been to several countries outside the US over the years, and I can tell you that, for all our faults, this is still one of the most tolerant - if not downright accommodating - countries on the planet regarding issues like religious freedom. If you don't truly believe that, try the alternatives.

 

If we begin a trend of legislating all aspects of any law-abiding business, eventually we end up with nationalized mercantilism. I've lived in countries like that, and I'd much rather prefer the American model. Let the market decide which businesses succeed or fail. FYI: As a tenable business model, the federal gov't is quite lacking (I'm being kind).

 

Please don't get me wrong - there are cases where uncle Sammy should step in and possibly introduce new legislation. Let's just not get carried away and end up tossing out the baby in the process. Who among us honestly believes that we don't have enough laws? Lawyers excluded, of course.

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Re: Just how TOLERANT are Christians to be?

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Message 128 of 262

@jimc91 wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

 

Again, Jim.  How tolerant should Christians be?


We are to Love the sinner but  hate the SIN.

 

Did you not read the entire article at the link?

 

William Craig did a very good job writing this perspective for those of us that believe in God...


"SIN" is disobedience to God. Since we now know that homosexuality is a natural characteristic and not a chosen behavior, being Homosexual is what GOD INTENDED for that person. How then can that be a Sin? You use the same argument as the idiots who claimed slavery was justified because GOD hated black people who were black because of their sinful descent from Cain.

 

You cannot be "disobedient" unless you have a choice in the matter. Homosexuality is NOT a matter of CHOICE.

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Re: Just how TOLERANT are Christians to be?

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Message 129 of 262

@ChasKy53 wrote:

Jimc,  how tolerant are Christians to be?  Give me your opinion, your own words, if you can do that.


Just from my observations on the discussion:

  • Tolerant right up to where it crosses the slogans the shopkeeper hears
  • Extra tolerance if it is going to cost the shopkeeper his/her business.  After all, the soul is less valuable than the cake shop.
  • Tolerant right up until they have to actually read whatever religious instruction they subscribe to.  My group uses somethign we call a "Bible" but I am not sure what they use.
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Re: Just how TOLERANT are Christians to be?

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Message 130 of 262

Jimc,  how tolerant are Christians to be?  Give me your opinion, your own words, if you can do that.


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
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