Refresh your driving skills and you could save on your auto insurance! Sign up for the AARP Smart Driver course.

 

Reply
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
226
Views

Re: Is Trump A Fascist ? Is The U.S. Goverment?

226 Views
Message 1 of 18

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

chas - your source seems to put a lot of weight on "us vs them". I suggest you consider the actions of the "Resistance" and the thought by a poster that all Republicans below the Mason-Dixon Line are racists. Also consider "Republicans suck.

 

Now - which side of the ideological divide is pushing "us vs them"?


Care to comment on all of the things in the article that indicate a society is becoming fascist?  Or did you actually read the entire article?


No, not really. Additional comments are not needed. There is much in the article that has already been discussed over and over as others found such definitions to twist and bend. I did think, however, that the "us vs them" aspct was interesting for the reasons I posted.

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
226
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
234
Views

Re: Is Trump A Fascist ? Is The U.S. Goverment?

234 Views
Message 2 of 18

@rk9152 wrote:

@umbarch64 wrote:

Webster's definition

 

 You are right. In our modern world definitions are not quite A or B or clean cut in any way. But I would like to discuss some of your assumptions above.

 

OK...but most are not assumptions.

 

First, your idea of the left being associated with Liberalism which in turn is associated with freedom of the individual - yes, that was they way it was in the Hubert Humphrey days. However, the Progressive movement has taken over the place previously occupied by Liberals.

 

@rather than quoting verbatim, I'm going to send you to Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary.  Copyright @ 1989 by dilithium Press Ltd. , Barnes & Noble Books 1992.  ISBN 1-56619-147-5. You may recall I informed the entire forum some time ago that was the source I was and would be using for definitons and why.  You know definitions vary widely between so-called authorities and it is often convenient to quibble about whose applies to what is said.  Can't be helped.  English is a not a static language.  For that reason I picked this source specifically because it is widely referenced as the authority for use in drafting and interpreting law.  

 

I went to Webster and asked of "political right" and got "The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary" so I will have to question your quote.

 

No surprise...'political right' is not in the above edition either.  'Pollitical' is however.  'Right' is as well.  Refer to it. You will find 62 separate definitions by number.  Pick No. 36.  See it?  Verbatim.  I trust we are now past that bit of sophistry and can deal with what means what.

 

In basic terms I look at "left" vs "right" this way. Both sides are decent people who want the best for the country and the people.The right has a higher opinion of people in that they want less control and less benefits operating on the theory that freedom and independence is needed for people to attain their highest possible success. Under that concept, some do fail. but the capable excel.

 

OK.  I now have what you think you say when you say it. 

 

The authority I cite says differently.  Decent people do not lie to one another...that's for starters. 'Right' or 'left' matters not. I will say the RRRR now in control of the Government is far and away the worst offender.  That is supported by credible evidence. 

 

What you say immediately above is a distortion of actual meaning I cited in my post...approximately 180 degrees from it. 

 

I gave valid definitions from an authoritative source. They relate to the topic. The term 'fascist' applies closely to characteristics Donald John Trump and his devotees exhibit daily.  The current US Government is controlled by the RRRR sector of the Republican Party. That Government increasingly exhibits authoritarian and fascist characteristics.   

 

Your response to my post is one more instance of disingenuity masquerading as logic.  No one person of any persuasion is the same as another...they may appear the same, but they aren't.  The convictions they say they share may appear the same, but they aren't.  Not really.  Unique, so they are.  You are in error with your stereotype.

 

The left has a lower opinion of some people assuming they are incapable of "making it on their own" and feels that such people must be "taken under the wing" of government. This does help some but creates a dependency that reduces the accomplishment of others.

 

A completely unwarranted presumption which, if accepted, leads to an erroneous conclusion even IF perfect logic were to be employed in the process of getting there.  It hasn't been to date and isn't now.

 

And then there is the more direct approach - "Republicans suck". 

 

And that means what?  I don't condone stereotypes even if they are accurate ones.  I do have to admit that when the behavior fits the stereotype, it is hard to discredit the sterotype. Let's just say not all people are the same and let it go at that.

 

Some see nuance, some are very narrow and hate-filled in their views.

 

That has truth to it.  So....what do you think has happened to so much of the Republican party that refuses to purge itself of a vile infestation. I'll be nice and not use any more nasty words for the nasty things they need to rid themselves of.  

 

Are you up to date now?


 

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
234
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
246
Views

Re: Is Trump A Fascist ? Is The U.S. Goverment?

246 Views
Message 3 of 18

@rk9152 wrote:

". 

 

Some see nuance, some are very narrow and hate-filled in their views.


Yep, hate-filled about Hillary, Obama, the Left, 'progressives", "free stuff", etc, etc ...........


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
246
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
1
Kudos
271
Views

Re: Is Trump A Fascist ? Is The U.S. Goverment?

271 Views
Message 4 of 18

@gruffstuff wrote:

Is Trump A Fascist ? Is The U.S. Goverment?

 

handsome is as handsome does

  1. A person's good actions, rather than outward appeal, define his or her handsomeness in the eyes of others.

 

Fascism is as fascism does.

 

A person's or government's actions, rather then outward appeal, or words, define that person or that government as fascist, in the eyes of it's people, or the people of the world.

 

Do Trump's actions and the actions of Trump's government  define Trump as fascist in your eyes?

 

How many boxes in the facist check list are checked when applied to  Trump, Trump's goverment, and the Republican Party?

 

 

 

 https://rense.com/general37/fascism.htm

 

 

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

 

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

 

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

 

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. 

 

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

 

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

 

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

 

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposedto the government's policies or actions.

 

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

 

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

 

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

 

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

 

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

 

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

 

 

 


All the above is true, but I think lil donny would rather be an Oligarch than a Fascist - main difference being the Oligarch has reduced the populace to virtual slaves who don't even require the occasional rally to "inspire" their allegiance because they're totally powerless.

As for the Government, it will remain fascist as long as its leaders are, so eliminate the leadership, get back Democracy, BUT we must keep ANOTHER fascist from getting on SCOTUS before January or fascism will survive for at least another generation.

 

VOTE OUT THE NRAGOP IN NOVEMBER

Report Inappropriate Content
1
Kudos
271
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
284
Views

Re: Is Trump A Fascist ? Is The U.S. Goverment?

284 Views
Message 5 of 18

@rk9152 wrote:

chas - your source seems to put a lot of weight on "us vs them". I suggest you consider the actions of the "Resistance" and the thought by a poster that all Republicans below the Mason-Dixon Line are racists. Also consider "Republicans suck.

 

Now - which side of the ideological divide is pushing "us vs them"?


Care to comment on all of the things in the article that indicate a society is becoming fascist?  Or did you actually read the entire article?


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
284
Views
Treasured Social Butterfly
1
Kudos
294
Views

Re: Is Trump A Fascist ? Is The U.S. Goverment?

294 Views
Message 6 of 18

@rk9152 wrote:

@umbarch64 wrote:

Webster's definition of fascism does not place the governmental system  predominantly right or left on the political scale.  Neither does the version Wikipedia offers.  Fascism is, after all, a matter of a dictator of some flavor having complete power.  An authoritarian regime with authoritarian characteristics.  Given that alone, Fascism could be a left or right orientation.  There are so-called Leftist Dictatorships, BUT they are only so-called.  The definitions of left and right do not lead to that pronouncement.  

 

In political parlance: 

 

The 'left' is associated with 'liberalism' which is "a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, non-violent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor and government guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties."  [Webster's]   

 

The "right is a complex of individuals or organized groups opposing any change in a liberal direction and usually advocating rigid maintenance of the established social, political or economic order, often by authoritarian means."  [Webster's] 

 

That is telling about where fascism is likely to occur and where the characteristics of progression to absolute power...dictatorship...are likely to start and end.  IF you're concerned with the Truth of any of this, of course.  Some do not see Truth helpful to accomplish their agenda and so ignore it or distort it to their purpose.

 

So IF Truth is a concern of yours, It's OK to speak of Fascism and Authoritarianism and Conservatism and 'The Right' as having common characteristics. They do.  It is not OK to conflate Fascism with Liberalism in any way whatsoever.  Those two are the anti-thesis of each other....by definition.  Newspeak is not a part of our society....yet.  They're working on it, though, they're working on it.  [There's a dvd that's been out for awhile called "Orwell rolls in his Grave".....worthwhile]

 

 You are right. In our modern world definitions are not quite A or B or clean cut in any way. But I would like to discuss some of your assumptions above.

 

First, your idea of the left being associated with Liberalism which in turn is associated with freedom of the individual - yes, that was they way it was in the Hubert Humphrey days. However, the Progressive movement has taken over the place previously occupied by Liberals.

 

I went to Webster and asked of "political right" and got "The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary" so I will have to question your quote.

 

In basic terms I look at "left" vs "right" this way. Both sides are decent people who want the best for the country and the people.The right has a higher opinion of people in that they want less control and less benefits operating on the theory that freedom and independence is needed for people to attain their highest possible success. Under that concept, some do fail. but the capable excel.

The left has a lower opinion of some people assuming they are incapable of "making it on their own" and feels that such people must be "taken under the wing" of government. This does help some but creates a dependency that reduces the accomplishment of others.

 

And then there is the more direct approach - "Republicans suck". 

 

Some see nuance, some are very narrow and hate-filled in their views.


Some are racist, fascist followers and supporters of Putin's treason tot in the White House...

44>dolt45
Report Inappropriate Content
1
Kudos
294
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
301
Views

Re: Is Trump A Fascist ? Is The U.S. Goverment?

301 Views
Message 7 of 18

@umbarch64 wrote:

Webster's definition of fascism does not place the governmental system  predominantly right or left on the political scale.  Neither does the version Wikipedia offers.  Fascism is, after all, a matter of a dictator of some flavor having complete power.  An authoritarian regime with authoritarian characteristics.  Given that alone, Fascism could be a left or right orientation.  There are so-called Leftist Dictatorships, BUT they are only so-called.  The definitions of left and right do not lead to that pronouncement.  

 

In political parlance: 

 

The 'left' is associated with 'liberalism' which is "a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, non-violent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor and government guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties."  [Webster's]   

 

The "right is a complex of individuals or organized groups opposing any change in a liberal direction and usually advocating rigid maintenance of the established social, political or economic order, often by authoritarian means."  [Webster's] 

 

That is telling about where fascism is likely to occur and where the characteristics of progression to absolute power...dictatorship...are likely to start and end.  IF you're concerned with the Truth of any of this, of course.  Some do not see Truth helpful to accomplish their agenda and so ignore it or distort it to their purpose.

 

So IF Truth is a concern of yours, It's OK to speak of Fascism and Authoritarianism and Conservatism and 'The Right' as having common characteristics. They do.  It is not OK to conflate Fascism with Liberalism in any way whatsoever.  Those two are the anti-thesis of each other....by definition.  Newspeak is not a part of our society....yet.  They're working on it, though, they're working on it.  [There's a dvd that's been out for awhile called "Orwell rolls in his Grave".....worthwhile]

 

 You are right. In our modern world definitions are not quite A or B or clean cut in any way. But I would like to discuss some of your assumptions above.

 

First, your idea of the left being associated with Liberalism which in turn is associated with freedom of the individual - yes, that was they way it was in the Hubert Humphrey days. However, the Progressive movement has taken over the place previously occupied by Liberals.

 

I went to Webster and asked of "political right" and got "The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary" so I will have to question your quote.

 

In basic terms I look at "left" vs "right" this way. Both sides are decent people who want the best for the country and the people.The right has a higher opinion of people in that they want less control and less benefits operating on the theory that freedom and independence is needed for people to attain their highest possible success. Under that concept, some do fail. but the capable excel.

The left has a lower opinion of some people assuming they are incapable of "making it on their own" and feels that such people must be "taken under the wing" of government. This does help some but creates a dependency that reduces the accomplishment of others.

 

And then there is the more direct approach - "Republicans suck". 

 

Some see nuance, some are very narrow and hate-filled in their views.

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
301
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
323
Views

Re: Is Trump A Fascist ? Is The U.S. Goverment?

323 Views
Message 8 of 18

Webster's definition of fascism does not place the governmental system  predominantly right or left on the political scale.  Neither does the version Wikipedia offers.  Fascism is, after all, a matter of a dictator of some flavor having complete power.  An authoritarian regime with authoritarian characteristics.  Given that alone, Fascism could be a left or right orientation.  There are so-called Leftist Dictatorships, BUT they are only so-called.  The definitions of left and right do not lead to that pronouncement.  

 

In political parlance: 

 

The 'left' is associated with 'liberalism' which is "a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, non-violent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor and government guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties."  [Webster's]   

 

The "right is a complex of individuals or organized groups opposing any change in a liberal direction and usually advocating rigid maintenance of the established social, political or economic order, often by authoritarian means."  [Webster's] 

 

That is telling about where fascism is likely to occur and where the characteristics of progression to absolute power...dictatorship...are likely to start and end.  IF you're concerned with the Truth of any of this, of course.  Some do not see Truth helpful to accomplish their agenda and so ignore it or distort it to their purpose.

 

So IF Truth is a concern of yours, It's OK to speak of Fascism and Authoritarianism and Conservatism and 'The Right' as having common characteristics. They do.  It is not OK to conflate Fascism with Liberalism in any way whatsoever.  Those two are the anti-thesis of each other....by definition.  Newspeak is not a part of our society....yet.  They're working on it, though, they're working on it.  [There's a dvd that's been out for awhile called "Orwell rolls in his Grave".....worthwhile]

 

 

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
323
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
1
Kudos
343
Views

Re: Is Trump A Fascist ? Is The U.S. Goverment?

343 Views
Message 9 of 18
@gruffstuff

Quite a few boxes are checked in your 14, maybe all 14.
Live For Today, No One is Guaranteed a TOMORROW !
Report Inappropriate Content
1
Kudos
343
Views
Valued Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
349
Views

Re: Is Trump A Fascist ? Is The U.S. Goverment?

349 Views
Message 10 of 18

@gruffstuff wrote:

 

 

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

 

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

 

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. 

 

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

 

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

 

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

 

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposedto the government's policies or actions.

 

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

 

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

 

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

 

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

 

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

 

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

 

I believe Britt has been discussed before but we can do it again.

1. I remember as a kid that we were proud to be Americans. Were we fascists?

2. I have not seen human rights disdained or any of the rest of that. Unless you are equating understanding the need for national borders with disdaining human rights.

3. Sounds like the actions of the left calling every Republican south of the Mason-Dixon Line a racist. Or how about calling everyone you disagree with a racist, Nazi, fascist, sexist, Kluxer, homophobe, alt-right, etc. etc. etc.

4. Are we overspending on national defense???

5. Rampant sexism - yep, the Hollywood left and the Deputy Chair of the DNC do seem to lean towards fascism by that definition.

6. Well, the left does seem to control the mass media - so, you may have something there.

7. Do you think that we are overly concerned with national security? When you figure that the radical end of the Muslim religion has declared jihad on us, it seems we should be concerned.

8. All Presidents have said stuff like "God bless America". All people want morality in their elected representatives. What problem do you see in contemporary America?

9. Corporations are key to capitalism. Your point? Yes, pols are often too close to them. however that did not begin in January of 2017. in fact, Ike warned about it a few years ago.

10. Respect for the rights of the worker to unionize or not is hardly fascist although the left opposes that freedom.

11. Those who use their Art for political purposes should be disdained. Any objection?

12. I'd like to think that everyone is concerned with, for example, the murder rate in Chicago. Other than that - what is your concern?

13. True - not new and covered above.

14. Well, the Hillary campaign did hire a foreign agent to sabotage her opponent but it all worked out well so - no problemo!


 

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
349
Views
cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
Users
Announcements

Have a question about AARP membership or benefits? Ask it in the AARP Help Membership forum, Benefits & Discounts forum, or General forum.


multiple white question marks with center red question mark

Top Authors