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Treasured Social Butterfly
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Re: Immigration Crime & Fear Mongering

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Message 31 of 56

Thank  your for your post, and  I thought that noone else but me understood the immigration  issue.

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Re: Immigration Crime & Fear Mongering

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Message 32 of 56

@rk9152wrote:

@ManicProgressivewrote:


I never said that term was racist. I said the policy choices were.


The policy is intended to deal with illegal immigrants - how is that racist?


Because it's NOT a policy that is meant to actually deal with illegal immigrants.  It's either stupid, or it's deliberately meant to rile up Trump's racist base, playing on their fears of losing their culture. 

 

Policymaking 101:

 

First you identify the problem: Illegal immigration, or illegal immigrants, or both?

 

Then you identify the scope of the problem:  There are 11-13 million illegal immigrants here already.   But current illegal immigration is at its lowest in a very long time.  So what's the best thing to target in order to solve the problem?  People who are currently here.  We can address current and future illegal immigration, too.  But is it just from Mexico?  What about the influx from Asia?  What about the 20+ countries who don't work with us to repatriate illegal immigrants?  

 

What other problems contribute to the illegal immigrant population in the country?  Inadequate ICE staffing.  Inadequate immigration court staffing.  A severe backlog in pending deportation cases.   700,000 right now.  We also have businesses that both employ and depend on illegal immigrant workers.  To disrupt those significantly would likely hurt the economy.  Other causes are political, environmental, and economic instability in much of Central and South America.   We also have a growing number of Asian immigrants who overstay their visas, engage in sham marriages, fly here to have babies, and engage in other illegal green card sponsor schemes.  

 

Which of these contributing factors can we actually reduce or eliminate?  Staffing for sure.  Cracking down on businesses who hire illegally, for sure.  Revamping the guest worker program so that it's sufficiently robust enough to address seasonal needs.   Sure.   Instability in Central and South America?  Not as much control.   Relationships and agreements with other nations to help reduce illegal immigration?  Some control.   Visa overstays?   Yes, we can crack down on that. 

 

How to solve the problem:   The biggest issue are those who are already here.  2/3 of them have been here more than a decade.   Do we treat them the same or differently?  Why or why not?  Of those, do we target those who have a history of violent criminal history?  Or any criminal history?  Do we target those with violent criminal history first?  If so, which program had better results?  Obama's Priority Enforcement Program?  Or Trump's return to Obama's old Secure Communities Program?  Or should we look at something else? Put funding toward staffing, expedited cases, business employment enforcement, visa enforcement, and the guest worker program.  

 

This is why Trump's simplistic, ineffective policy choices of a border wall and National Guard are so frustrating.  The problem is far more complex and will take a much more multi-faceted and comprehensive approach to solve.   

 

But the idea of a wall is all splashy and glitzy.   The national guard?  Everyone loves the military.  Let's deploy them.   They are feel-good but ineffectual moves.  And the deeper issue is.....why do these ideas feel good to certain people?   Because if it truly were about crime, or jobs, or just following the letter of the immigration law, these certain people would be pissed at Trump for wasting everyone's time and everyone's tax dollars.  They'd be yelling about the visa overstays and the businesses who employ them and our failure to actually adjudicate and deport people on a timely basis.   But they aren't.  They just love Trump and his sophomoric policies even more.    Why?  If it's not fear of "other," of losing their culture, of losing superiority in numbers, then what is it?  

 

 

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Re: Immigration Crime & Fear Mongering

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Message 33 of 56

   How do you know that the ignoble donald supporters can't discuss the merits of a thread;, they throw up  RW propaganda verbage.    

 

   Here is something else they are in abject denial about:   For the first time, the number of unauthorized immigrants living in the U.S. was lower in 2015 than it was at the end of the Great Recession in 2009. The origin countries of unauthorized immigrants also shifted during that time, with the number from Mexico declining and the number from other regions rising, according to the latest Pew Research Center estimates.

PRO-LIFE is Affordable Healthcare for ALL .
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Re: Immigration Crime & Fear Mongering

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Message 34 of 56

@rk9152wrote:

@Centristsin2010wrote:

@ManicProgressivewrote:

@rk9152wrote:

@ManicProgressivewrote:

This is why liberals think many conservatives are racist. 

 

When you make policy, you try to be fiscally prudent and operationally effective. What is the wrong you are trying to correct? What is the good you are trying to achieve? How can you achieve the most good with the least amount of money?

 

If it’s crime prevention and reduction, border walls and national guard deployments are not the way.  

 

If it’s keeping out brown people, those tactics may help.


"Illegal immigrant" is not a racist term. Hence, the Liberals are wrong about their claim about Conservatives.


I never said that term was racist. I said the policy choices were.


Yeah TM.... It's the usual intellectual dishonesty by the one poster spinning another straw argument....it's what he does.


"intellectual dishonesty" and "straw" - O.K. you got the required meaningless terms in. OK, back to lies and fraudulant arguments then.  It might prove to be constructive if you didn't lie and didn't attempt to create falacies.  That should take care of your issue.  Now, could you explain how inserting "brown people" into the discussion is not racist?  Can you explain how it IS racist? We've learned from yours and other right-wing extremists that if someone mentions race, you think it's "racists".  I'd suggest borrowing a dictionary.


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Re: Immigration Crime & Fear Mongering

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Message 35 of 56

@ChasKy53wrote:


You were simply asked to post data to support the claim that it's about crime or something other than race. You failed to do so, just more rhetoric instead.
So I guess until you post supportive data ............. it must be race.


Why should I submit data when someone inserts race into a discussion about immigration?  Inserting 'brown' people into the discussion where illegals come from all over from all different races.

 

Why don't you post data showing its not about race?  You keep critiquing other posters, yet never come up with anything original yourself.  Some are not leaders but are meant to be followers.

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Re: Immigration Crime & Fear Mongering

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Message 36 of 56

@TxGrandpa2wrote:

@ManicProgressivewrote:


It’s not inserting the race card. It’s disproving every other reason, like crime, for such stupid policies, until the only thing left is race/ethnicity.  

 

If it’s not about race, show me with data how it’s not.  


If it sounds like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck, then it must be a duck.  These illegals are coming through Mexico and their skin is predominently brown.  I'm fully aware of the buzz words for race.

 

No, it's about illegal immigration where foreign nationals are invading our borders.

 

And its different races from around the world who is using our southern border as an illegal entry point.


You were simply asked to post data to support the claim that it's about crime or something other than race. You failed to do so, just more rhetoric instead.
So I guess until you post supportive data ............. it must be race.


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
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Re: Immigration Crime & Fear Mongering

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Message 37 of 56

@Centristsin2010wrote:

@ManicProgressivewrote:

@rk9152wrote:

@ManicProgressivewrote:

This is why liberals think many conservatives are racist. 

 

When you make policy, you try to be fiscally prudent and operationally effective. What is the wrong you are trying to correct? What is the good you are trying to achieve? How can you achieve the most good with the least amount of money?

 

If it’s crime prevention and reduction, border walls and national guard deployments are not the way.  

 

If it’s keeping out brown people, those tactics may help.


"Illegal immigrant" is not a racist term. Hence, the Liberals are wrong about their claim about Conservatives.


I never said that term was racist. I said the policy choices were.


Yeah TM.... It's the usual intellectual dishonesty by the one poster spinning another straw argument....it's what he does.


"intellectual dishonesty" and "straw" - O.K. you got the required meaningless terms in. Now, could you explain how inserting "brown people" into the discussion is not racist?

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Re: Immigration Crime & Fear Mongering

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Message 38 of 56

@rk9152wrote:

@ManicProgressivewrote:

This is why liberals think many conservatives are racist. 

 

When you make policy, you try to be fiscally prudent and operationally effective. What is the wrong you are trying to correct? What is the good you are trying to achieve? How can you achieve the most good with the least amount of money?

 

If it’s crime prevention and reduction, border walls and national guard deployments are not the way.  

 

If it’s keeping out brown people, those tactics may help.


"Illegal immigrant" is not a racist term. Hence, the Liberals are wrong about their claim about Conservatives.


So who said "illegal immigrant" is a racist term?  The poster you replied to certainly didn't.  So ........... you build a straw argument instead of replying to what was posted.


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
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Re: Immigration Crime & Fear Mongering

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Message 39 of 56

@MIsekerwrote:

@rk9152wrote:

@ManicProgressivewrote:

This is why liberals think many conservatives are racist. 

 

When you make policy, you try to be fiscally prudent and operationally effective. What is the wrong you are trying to correct? What is the good you are trying to achieve? How can you achieve the most good with the least amount of money?

 

If it’s crime prevention and reduction, border walls and national guard deployments are not the way.  

 

If it’s keeping out brown people, those tactics may help.


"Illegal immigrant" is not a racist term. Hence, the Liberals are wrong about their claim about Conservatives.


No, conservatives are still racist.


that is not a fact - it isn't even an point to be discsuused - it is just a bias of the cult of hatred

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Re: Immigration Crime & Fear Mongering

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Message 40 of 56

@ManicProgressivewrote:

@TxGrandpa2wrote:

@rk9152wrote:

@ManicProgressivewrote:

....snip...

If it’s keeping out brown people, those tactics may help.


"Illegal immigrant" is not a racist term. Hence, the Liberals are wrong about their claim about Conservatives.


It should be noticed that the words 'brown people' is constantly brought up in connection with border controls.  inserting the 'race' card.  Nothing about illegal immigration, etc.  Must be a new edict passed down by the cult leaders.


It’s not inserting the race card. It’s disproving every other reason, like crime, for such stupid policies, until the only thing left is race/ethnicity.  

 

If it’s not about race, show me with data how it’s not.  


How is using the term "brown people" not racist? You can't hide behind "show me the data" - the words are yours.

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