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Recognized Social Butterfly

ISRAEL HAS LOST ITS WAY

EXCERPT FROM "THE DAILY BEAST"

ACCORDING TO A NOTED JEWISH WRITER

 

Decrying the “tragic” trajectory of contemporary Israel, Grossman suggested it is time for a rewrite of the national narrative. But today’s Israeli democracy, he said, is imperiled by a government with “a very extreme fundamentalist nationalist and fascist” agenda.

“They kidnap our present and they will kidnap our future and they make sure that no peace will be possible,” he warned.

In an era in which Zionism is a “dirty word” in Europe and some parts of the United States, said Grossman, he strives to reinforce the abiding reasons for the foundation of the Jewish state.

“I insist on reminding myself and others that the story of the homecoming of the Jewish people to his homeland from all over the world and the reality that was created here against all odds is one of the greatest stories among the other greatest stories of mankind. No lesser than that. What happened later was a distortion,” he said.

‘They kidnap our present and they will kidnap our future and they make sure that no peace will be possible’

Israel, Grossman continued, was created so the Jews may never again be victims. “And look at us now: The strongest military power in the whole region… and yet we regard ourselves as so weak and so dependent on what others will do. Such victims we are still — of our fears, of our history, of the mistakes of our enemy and our future partner.”

In the decades since the Six Day War, the greatness of the story of Israel has been derailed, he said.

“You can see how at a certain moment all our fate as a country shifted to another path, to another track on our train. And we found ourselves in a situation that is so profoundly different from almost all of our history. From a people that is weak and dependent on the good will — and more often on the bad will — of others, a people that had no army, no weapon, no way to defend itself, suddenly we found ourselves as an empire,” Grossman said.

“There was a temptation in the ability to subjugate another people to our will, to our wishes, to dictate their time, their routine, their education. To be able to invade their intimacy whenever we wanted. There was even something erotic about it in the beginning. And it isn’t only that we got used to this situation — we fell in love with the situation,” he said.

Israel’s narrative changed starkly, he said, when “we started to fabricate ideologies that would justify why we must be in this situation, why it’s better for us with all the faults and the problems, why it’s better for us than any other option. And we came to our situation now, which is a tragic situation. I regard it really as a tragedy. We behave in a suicidal way now.”

‘You can see how at a certain moment all our fate as a country shifted to another path, to another track on our train’

He accused the right-wing government of stoking its citizens’ innate fears. Grossman described Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as a “magician” who “knows how to stir together the real dangers Israel faces… with the echoes of past trauma. And we, as a traumatized community — and we are a traumatized community — are totally helpless in the face of such manipulation,” he said.

According to Grossman, however, there is a palpable resistance in the country’s thriving arts and cultural scene.

“There is an eruption of artistic powers in Israel,” he said, not only in literature, but all media. Even if they aren’t a direct path to peace, the arts are, at least for Grossman, a source of optimism.

“One of the great rewards of writing is it allows you to have a second chance,” said Grossman. “You’re not doomed to experience again and again the same story.”

schlomo
Trusted Social Butterfly

"............do not unto others that which you would not have them do unto you. That is the entire Torah....."  a passage from the Torah that is repeated in different forms saying the same thing in many places.  Look it up.  So many that one might wonder if that is a universal ethic and we need no other.. 

 

That being said,... Israel is not the only one who has lost its way.  That excuses nothing.  We could all behave better, that's a fact.  Each and every infraction of that admonishment is separate and distinct,  however, and should be considered as such.  Blame should be assessed accordingly......

 

If the shoe fits....put it on. 

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Recognized Social Butterfly

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I have a caveat. Your quote actually doesn't come from the Torah but from the Talmud and refers to Hillel, a rabbi who lived a century before Jesus. This "negative" predating of the Golden Rule may well be apocryphal. Here is the context :"Hillel, when asked by a prospective convert to Judaism to teach him the whole while he stood on one leg, replied:  '“That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, The rest is commentary. Go forth and study.'”

schlomo
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Honored Social Butterfly

So, I guess that providing Israel a very rich country with 38 billion dollars is not important enough for Americans to consider, if it is ok with all, please, post your postion otherwise, 
We know about the History of Israel, please, I am tired of seeing it posted in this thread and in many other threads
What is the problem with so many that apparently they don't care that we the tax payer provide a country that is not in need with that exhorbitant amount of money.

no name
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Honored Social Butterfly

Here's a win/win package - we stop aid to Israel, her "neighbors" stop funding terrorists, the terrorists stop rockets, stabbings and suicide bombings, and we all sing Kumbya while living in peace.

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Honored Social Butterfly


@rk9152 wrote:

Here's a win/win package - we stop aid to Israel, her "neighbors" stop funding terrorists, the terrorists stop rockets, stabbings and suicide bombings, and we all sing Kumbya while living in peace.


Isn't something. the minute that I talk about money, the victim mentality comes thru.
No one is saying that Israel does not require help. or arms to defend themselves so please, don't cry me a river.

What I am questioning is the quantity of what we provide Israel.  so please, get your facts straight,if you really want to repond to my post.

no name
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Honored Social Butterfly

And again the reason as to why we provide Billions of dollars to Istael when Israel is not a poor country is......................................

no name
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Honored Social Butterfly

I would believe that Israel lost it's way when they started treating the Palestinian peoples similar to how they were treated in Germany and Europe.  But people can't understand why the Palestinians have fought back against them?

Honored Social Butterfly


@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

I would believe that Israel lost it's way when they started treating the Palestinian peoples similar to how they were treated in Germany and Europe.  But people can't understand why the Palestinians have fought back against them?


I'll have to disagree with you a bit Tx. Consider the life of an Arab in Israel as compared to a Jew in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc.

 

Also remember that when the UN created Israel, their neighbors refused to take refugees, possibly to create a permanent friction point.

 

I suspect if there were an end to suicide bombings, rocket attacks, and other terrorist activities, the life style of Palestinians in Israel would be far better than they would find in other neighboring nations.

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Honored Social Butterfly


@rk9152 wrote:

 

I suspect if there were an end to suicide bombings, rocket attacks, and other terrorist activities, the life style of Palestinians in Israel would be far better than they would find in other neighboring nations.


I'm afraid that we'll have to disagree on this topic.  The Palestinians were there before the immigration of the Jews, and their land was arbitrarily given away by the British.  This is a similar situation with that of the Native Americans who was pushed from their homes by force.  I recall the news events of the day from the 1940s.

 

And like the Native Americans, the Palestinians have pushed back with terriorism, etc. 

 

We will just have to disagree on this.

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Honored Social Butterfly

Personally I don't approve their method. but I will be very honest. I do believe that we need an honest answer as to why This country provides Israel the amount of money that they receive from us.

Again, anyone here has data as to the economic need of Israel?

I am willing to understand the need if there is one. but I need to have the comprehension that we are not aiding a country that in reality doesn't need our money , they may need arms and our alliances but money?  any answers?

no name
Honored Social Butterfly

I have a report that may shed some light regarding the issue of money. that has been given to Israel in the new deal that was signed by Trump.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/09/united-states-israel-memorandum-of-underst...

no name
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Honored Social Butterfly

a government with “a very extreme fundamentalist nationalist and fascist” agenda.

 

That's what Israel was founded on, that's what Zionism is. The attacks on ( non Jews ) started before the creation of Israel and continue to this day.

 

I agree with the sentiment of the article and the intent of the OP, but I can't sugar coat what Israel has done, is doing, and will do.

Honored Social Butterfly

The Jews were promised a Homeland at the end of WWI, but the victors used their military to prevent Jews from immigrating to this new Homeland because even then the Arabs had oil.

 

At the end of WWII, the promise was repeated and the State of Israel was created and immediatily the Arab Nations lauanched an all-out attack to exterminate the Jews.

 

The Jews won, but the Arabs continued their war of attrition, using the Arabs living inside Israel as perpetual refugees the Arabs named "Palestinians" because none of the Arab States would call them their own.

 

So today the reality is we can either have a secure State of Israel with it's current borders including the Golan and West Bank, OR we can have the slow, methodical destruction of Israel by giving 1/3d of its land to Arabs sworn to kill Jews and destroy Israel. There is no 3d option where Arabs get 1/3d of Israel and Israel survives in peace - verify this by seeing what happened when Arabs got the Gaza as a Palestinian(sic) Homeland.

Honored Social Butterfly

I don't believe that anyone here is arguing anything in your post. that is not what has been discussed here.

What has been discussed here is the amount of money that we as a country provide Israel and the question is as to the need of doing so.

any ideas on any of this.? 

no name
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Honored Social Butterfly


@gruffstuff wrote:

a government with “a very extreme fundamentalist nationalist and fascist” agenda.

 

That's what Israel was founded on, that's what Zionism is. The attacks on ( non Jews ) started before the creation of Israel and continue to this day.

 

I agree with the sentiment of the article and the intent of the OP, but I can't sugar coat what Israel has done, is doing, and will do.


Strange, all reports had the '47 war, the '67 war, the Yom Kipper war and other various attacks large and small going in the other direction. I guess that was because of all those Jews running the newspapers and network news outlets.

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Honored Social Butterfly

SO easy to forget Israel is on land taken from palestine. LETS GO TO PALESTINE was the post WWII cry. The author of the topic piece is merely pointing out the similarities between what they chose to leave behind in Europe and are currently doing today.
So it begins.
Honored Social Butterfly


@MIseker wrote:
SO easy to forget Israel is on land taken from palestine. LETS GO TO PALESTINE was the post WWII cry. The author of the topic piece is merely pointing out the similarities between what they chose to leave behind in Europe and are currently doing today.

It started with the Balfour Declaration in 1917 and was solidified by the UN in 1948.

 

I believe if I had my family sent to Auschwitz, I might have also thought "Let's go to Palestine" might be a good idea.

 

So, for those who are anti-Israel, what is your alternative. "Drive them into the sea" is a popular theme among their "neighbors". Your choice.....???

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Honored Social Butterfly

Again, and I will not give up. is there anyone here that wants to talk about the money?
forget about Israel and why they are there or whether they should be there or any of the history lessons that we have seen in these posts.

Why is it necessary to provide Israel with billions of dollars. Why does this country feels the obligation to do so?

Israel is not a poor country, we send them arms we provide them with allianaces, why money also? 
I will ask the question until somebody answers me.

no name
Honored Social Butterfly

Mlseker wrote--SO easy to forget Israel is on land taken from palestine. LETS GO TO PALESTINE was the post WWII cry. The author of the topic piece is merely pointing out the similarities between what they chose to leave behind in Europe and are currently doing today.

So it begins.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So easy to forget that Israel was in existence 4000 years ago.
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Trusted Social Butterfly


easyed598 wrote:

 

So easy to forget that Israel was in existence 4000 years ago.

 

Your point?

 

 

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Honored Social Butterfly

The point is the money that the US  provides Israel. that is the question. Why are we providing billions of dollars to a country as rich as Israel.

If they need protection from others  we can supply arms, and alliances in order to protect Israel, and I believe that it already exist. so wny the money also?

If anyone here has data as to

The median income of Israelis.

The median education of Israelis.

The poverty % existance in Istael
No one here is denying that Israel is surrounded by enemies, and they have treaties that assure them that we will defend them on all circumstances. 

we have armed them provided them with nuclear arms. or perhaps they simply got them on their own. But why do we need to continue to supply them with money.?

and that is the point of this discutssion.

no name
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Honored Social Butterfly


@easyed598 wrote:

Mlseker wrote--SO easy to forget Israel is on land taken from palestine. LETS GO TO PALESTINE was the post WWII cry. The author of the topic piece is merely pointing out the similarities between what they chose to leave behind in Europe and are currently doing today.

So it begins.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So easy to forget that Israel was in existence 4000 years ago.

--

 Have to disagree on that.   Remember it was the land of Canaan before the Israelites pushed them out.  And even then they didn't entirely occupy the country.

Honored Social Butterfly

and 4000 years ago there were no europeans in the americas. Lets settle on going back to the birth of Christ,,you know, when it was Roman.
So it begins.
Trusted Social Butterfly

When I think of Gaza I think of the Warsaw ghetto (Ghetto Warschau).

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Honored Social Butterfly

In our Nation there are people who disdain our Founding Fathers and our Constitution thinking although the that neo-Marxism of the Progressive Movement has failed everywhere it has been tried, it can work here under their guidance.


David Grossman is a comparable Israeli who thinks that the answer to terrorist attacks is to form a circle, join hands, and sing "Kumbya" and the terrorists will "see the light" and join them in song.

 

Let's face it, from it's inception Israel has been under attack from it's "neighbors" and internally. It is a miracle and a testament to strength and resolve that it even exists today.

 

Grossman has suffered tragedy in his life. That may have warped his thinking. But what warps the thinking of our posters? Anti-semitism is one option or perhaps someone can offer an alternative.

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Honored Social Butterfly


@rk9152 wrote:

In our Nation there are people who disdain our Founding Fathers and our Constitution thinking although the that neo-Marxism of the Progressive Movement has failed everywhere it has been tried, it can work here under their guidance.


David Grossman is a comparable Israeli who thinks that the answer to terrorist attacks is to form a circle, join hands, and sing "Kumbya" and the terrorists will "see the light" and join them in song.

 

Let's face it, from it's inception Israel has been under attack from it's "neighbors" and internally. It is a miracle and a testament to strength and resolve that it even exists today.

 

Grossman has suffered tragedy in his life. That may have warped his thinking. But what warps the thinking of our posters? Anti-semitism is one option or perhaps someone can offer an alternative.


You are simply regurgitating the excuses for the actions that Netanyahu has taken and the direction of the present Israel.  sorry, not valid  in the eyes of most. by calling anyone antisemitic because they don't aprove with this direction is not only silly but dangerous, because it denotes the lack of freedom of thought and action in that country.

no name
Honored Social Butterfly

Muslims and Jews lived peaceably together for decades. Then Ariel Sharon came along...


Honored Social Butterfly

The "Two State solution" is Israel for the Jews and Jordan for the Arabs, those being the 2 States carved out of the "British Mandate" portion of the Ottoman Empire.

 

The alternative, being pushed by those who refuse to learn from history, is Ethnic Cleansing/Final Solution of the Jews disguised beneath some fabricated national identity of "Palestinian" for all the Arabs the other Arabs wanted to make perpetual refugees so they would constantly attack Israel from within.

Honored Social Butterfly


@Snoopy48 wrote:

Muslims and Jews lived peaceably together for decades. Then Ariel Sharon came along...



If that were true, there would have been no need for Bill Clinton to broker that peace treaty which was rejected by Arafat in favor of continued fighting.

 

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