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Honored Social Butterfly

How Trump lost the summit

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2018/06/12/how-trump-lost-the-summit-before-the-p...

 

How Trump lost the summit before the photographers even left the room

 

 

The spectacle of the murderous dictator Kim Jong Un on equal footing with the president of the United States — each country’s flag represented, a  supposedly “normal” diplomatic exchange between two nuclear powers — was enough to turn democracy lovers’ stomachs. President Trump naturally made things worse. He gushed: “It’s my honor, and we will have a terrific relationship, I have no doubt.”

 

An honor to meet the man who maintains slave labor camps, who periodically attacks the ships of our ally South Korea and whose regime is responsible for the death of Otto Warmbier? That should stun Warmbier’s parents — and every decent human being. Trump envisions a “terrific” relationship with a country that conducts mass hacking, is arguably the worst human rights violator, threatens us with nuclear weapons, detains our people and seeks the reunification of the Korean peninsula under its rule of terror. Imagine if President Barack Obama traveled to Iran, shook Ayatollah Ali Khamenei’s hand, proclaimed it was a great honor and spoke about his conviction that Iran and the United States would have a terrific relationship. John Bolton and Mike Pompeo, among others, would have had a conniption.

 

Trump’s impulsive decision to have a summit and his insatiable need for attention provided Kim with a historic victory that no other U.S. president has handed to a North Korean leader. With not a single bomb dismantled or a single gram of fissile material shipped out of the country, Kim got more than he could have dreamed of — and all before the photographers departed.

 

It went downhill from there. The Post reports:

Honored Social Butterfly


@gruffstuff wrote:

 

 

Vietnam doesn't have a million man standing army on the door step of an ally, they don't have nukes either, and far as I know Vietnam hasn't threatened any of it's neighbors since the end of the Vietnam war. 

 

They haven't been belligerent, North Korea has.


Of course you're not aware that Vietnam and China have mostly been enemies for thousands of years?  Even over the past several decades there has been clashes between the two.  There is contention between the two over oil rich deposits in the off-shore waters of Vietnam, of which China claims is in their sphere of influence.

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Of course you're not aware that Vietnam and China have mostly been enemies for thousands of years?

 

 

Yes I am, it's the main reason the whole domino theory justification for the Vietnam War was baloney.

 

Vietnam didn't trust China, they knew if they let China in, China would never leave.

 

It is a case where understanding or ignoring  history could have saved a lot of grief. Ho Chi Minh reached out to Truman after WWII, but nothing came of it because Ho Chi Min was a communist.

 

Vietnam still doesn't trust China, with good reason.

 

I think they were correct in their assessment and still understand the Chinese better then Americans do.

 

So now we should trust the Chinese and Russian satellite state of North Korea?

 

No we should not, but we should normalize relations, IF North Korea basically does what it has said it will do, give up nukes and nuclear weapons, and that would include fissile materials, which come from nuclear reactors, OR agree to an  IAEA  inspection protocol of those reactors to verify the fissile  materials are disposed of in such a way that can't be used for weapons.

 

That includes dirty bombs.

 

North Korea has a substantial artillery system that can strike Seoul from hardened positions,  even without Nukes they inflict terrible damage, with dirty artillery shells they could do damage that would be very difficult or impossible to clean up.

 

I don't doubt  they have such weapons, along with poison  gas and chemical weapons.

 

The question is do you trust North Korea to not use those weapons?

 

If the answer is yes, explain why.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As6y5eI01XE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

@MIseker wrote:


The Germans had Japanese unconditionally surrendered to the US and unilaterally  gave up their arms, and accepted Constitutions written by the US.  So there is no difference?


Were you around to remember that?  We could bring up Vietnam.  There was no unconditional surrender there either. Yet they have become trading partners.  We have two bedroom suites manufactured in Vietnam that is solid wood that costs several thousands of dollars. 

 

Also, the house my wife grew up in is now a McDonalds. The town is a tourist attraction where Americans are common, especially for their tailoring industry.  So we shouldn't help North Korean people either?


you are the one that made the equal comparison Tx. I dont NEED to be as old as you to know what went on at the end of WWII...as i doubt you remember everything that happened in 1945. I do study history a bit..probably 10 times more than you.

 

So it begins.
Honored Social Butterfly


@MIseker wrote:


you are the one that made the equal comparison Tx. I dont NEED to be as old as you to know what went on at the end of WWII...as i doubt you remember everything that happened in 1945. I do study history a bit..probably 10 times more than you.

 


Yes, there is a comparison between Germany, Japan, North Korea, China and Vietnam.  We fought wars against all of them.  They committed many atrocities on people, including our soldiers who was captured.  Yet we extended the hand of friendship once the hostilities ceased.

 

The United States doesn't get even with former enemies but attempts to turn them into friends. If Trump can successfully swing this deal we would have access to their vast resources, plus an outlet for consumer goods, plus inexpensive quality labor as we found in Vietnam and other Asian countries.

 

Yes, you probably studied history, but it is different from living it.  Doubt you've studied history even as much as I have...not only have I been a history buff for around 8 decades, but have experienced it in the emotions of the time during that period.

 

According to your theories, you are being selective because of basic prejudices against some countries or ethnic groups.

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@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

@Roxanna35 wrote:


 

 

But remember the Germans and Japanese who was as bad or worse.  They are now our allies. 

 

And there is the saying about turning enemies to friends.  Isn't that worth a try?


Tx  are you forgetting the changes that these two countries have had in all these years. what changes do you attribute to the NK. have they changed and become a Democracy? Aren't t they still  a ruthless dictatorship?  Killing people, jailing them starving them there is no freedom in that country, and you want to compare them with Japan and Germany of today and what they become after WWII? Are you sure that you want NK as our friend?

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@Roxanna35 wrote:


Tx  are you forgetting the changes that these two countries have had in all these years. what changes do you attribute to the NK. have they changed and become a Democracy? Aren't t they still  a ruthless dictatorship?  Killing people, jailing them starving them there is no freedom in that country, and you want to compare them with Japan and Germany of today and what they become after WWII? Are you sure that you want NK as our friend?


I would think that it would help to descalate tensions between us and North Korea. South Korea has set the pace, so why shouldn't we?  Wasn't normalization attempted with Cuba, but it was the Cuban refugees who put a damper on that.  Why?

 

I get the idea here that it isn't just that Trump accomplished something Obama didn't that is the problem with liberals...they just can't stand that he took advantage of a possible breakthrough in relations.

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@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

@Roxanna35 wrote:


Tx  are you forgetting the changes that these two countries have had in all these years. what changes do you attribute to the NK. have they changed and become a Democracy? Aren't t they still  a ruthless dictatorship?  Killing people, jailing them starving them there is no freedom in that country, and you want to compare them with Japan and Germany of today and what they become after WWII? Are you sure that you want NK as our friend?


I would think that it would help to descalate tensions between us and North Korea. South Korea has set the pace, so why shouldn't we?  Wasn't normalization attempted with Cuba, but it was the Cuban refugees who put a damper on that.  Why?

 

I get the idea here that it isn't just that Trump accomplished something Obama didn't that is the problem with liberals...they just can't stand that he took advantage of a possible breakthrough in relations.


I would like to have the poster of this message board see the effects of what happens to an individual that is caught up in a cult and all os a sudden, his past life and experiences have no meaning or have changed. Tx  have you shown any of these post to any of your children? to your wife. and what do they think about your change.?

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Honored Social Butterfly


@Roxanna35 wrote:


I would like to have the poster of this message board see the effects of what happens to an individual that is caught up in a cult and all os a sudden, his past life and experiences have no meaning or have changed. Tx  have you shown any of these post to any of your children? to your wife. and what do they think about your change.?


We don't discuss politics at home...do you?  Does your family discuss politics and allow them to control thinking?   They have no use for this site but have other interests.  You should see the flowers my wife is mostly concerned about.  She has no interest in politics.  They are not pertinent to any discussion here.  You now seem to be emulating another poster who likes to bring family into these discussions.

 

I haven't changed, still the independent thinker I've always been.  Even if I have, don't I have the right to do so? 

 

Further, I base my opinions on my life experiences.  But what is it to you or anyone here what my opinion of other nations is?  And what do you know of my personal experiences has been? 

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@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

@Roxanna35 wrote:


I would like to have the poster of this message board see the effects of what happens to an individual that is caught up in a cult and all os a sudden, his past life and experiences have no meaning or have changed. Tx  have you shown any of these post to any of your children? to your wife. and what do they think about your change.?


We don't discuss politics at home...do you?  Does your family discuss politics and allow them to control thinking?   They have no use for this site but have other interests.  You should see the flowers my wife is mostly concerned about.  She has no interest in politics.  They are not pertinent to any discussion here.  You now seem to be emulating another poster who likes to bring family into these discussions.

 

I haven't changed, still the independent thinker I've always been.  Even if I have, don't I have the right to do so? 

 

Further, I base my opinions on my life experiences.  But what is it to you or anyone here what my opinion of other nations is?  And what do you know of my personal experiences has been? 


No Tx, I don't want to bring family into any of this, but your wife and I have very similar backgrounds and I cannot even conceive that she would if she knew that you now are applauding the Dictatorship that exists in NK is something that you approved. Sorry, I do'n't believe that of her, as you have told us she is a very intelligent woman and very well educated. I have lots of respect for her.

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Honored Social Butterfly


@Roxanna35 wrote:


No Tx, I don't want to bring family into any of this, but your wife and I have very similar backgrounds and I cannot even conceive that she would if she knew that you now are applauding the Dictatorship that exists in NK is something that you approved. Sorry, I do'n't believe that of her, as you have told us she is a very intelligent woman and very well educated. I have lots of respect for her.


Yes, she is highly educated, but that doesn't mean she is interested on politics.  She doesn't care about my political views, but I take an interest in her expertise with flowers that takes up a large part of our yard; and her outstanding gourmet cooking which is famous in our area. Other than that she is real independent with a life of her own. 

 

And I haven't been applauding the dictatorship of North Korea, but I appreciate that Kim and Trump has sat down together at a conference table. I think it's a step in the right direction.

 

As far as your not wanting to bring family into the discussion, then why did your do so?  If you were interested, a private message would have been best.  I wouldn't have been offended.

 

 

 

 

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@TxGrandpa2 wrote:


Yes, she is highly educated, but that doesn't mean she is interested on politics.  She doesn't care about my political views, but I take an interest in her expertise with flowers that takes up a large part of our yard; and her outstanding gourmet cooking which is famous in our area. Other than that she is real independent with a life of her own. 

 

And I haven't been applauding the dictatorship of North Korea, but I appreciate that Kim and Trump has sat down together at a conference table. I think it's a step in the right direction.

 

As far as your not wanting to bring family into the discussion, then why did your do so?  If you were interested, a private message would have been best.  I wouldn't have been offended.

 

 

Because your post was so offensive to people like your wife and me, left our countries because we valued the Democracy that this country provided. By comparing the friendship that we should have with NK with the friendship that has developed in different circumstances with Germany and Japan. was utterly unacceptable. and extremely derogatory to the soldiers that fought in the Korean War. 
Things in that country has not changed. and friendship in the manner that you described. is impossible if we want to preserve our values and concept of a free society. 
As a woman, I will provide an unsolicited advise. Don't show that post to your wife or children. ever. 

 


 

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@Roxanna35 wrote:

As a woman, I will provide an unsolicited advise. Don't show that post to your wife or children. ever. 

 


 


This is completely off-topic.  But if you want to continue this I'm sure we can civilly discuss it in a private message here.  I'll be expecting and looking forward to it.

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@TxGrandpa2 wrote:


Yes, she is highly educated, but that doesn't mean she is interested on politics.  She doesn't care about my political views, but I take an interest in her expertise with flowers that takes up a large part of our yard; and her outstanding gourmet cooking which is famous in our area. Other than that she is real independent with a life of her own. 

 

Bragging about your wife is unseemly - and way off topic.

 

44>dolt45
Honored Social Butterfly


@alferdpacker wrote:

 

 

Bragging about your wife is unseemly - and way off topic.

 


Answering another poster who attempted to bring up family in posts.  I also suggested that Private Messages was a better venue.

 

I recall that you have frequently brought in family in bragging about psychiatrists, attorneys or whatever someone brought up.  Even about ancestry.  So who are you to correct anyone?

Honored Social Butterfly


@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

@Roxanna35 wrote:


I would like to have the poster of this message board see the effects of what happens to an individual that is caught up in a cult and all os a sudden, his past life and experiences have no meaning or have changed. Tx  have you shown any of these post to any of your children? to your wife. and what do they think about your change.?


We don't discuss politics at home...do you?  Does your family discuss politics and allow them to control thinking?   They have no use for this site but have other interests.  You should see the flowers my wife is mostly concerned about.  She has no interest in politics.  They are not pertinent to any discussion here.  You now seem to be emulating another poster who likes to bring family into these discussions.

 

I haven't changed, still the independent thinker I've always been.  Even if I have, don't I have the right to do so? 

 

Further, I base my opinions on my life experiences.  But what is it to you or anyone here what my opinion of other nations is?  And what do you know of my personal experiences has been? 


Lets start with Korea. It was S K that started this ball rolling by trying to get the US and NK together. Trump said no and even had NK sunbed during the Olympics. SK then had a meeting with the North which they agreed to what just took place. It was SK job to get Trump there. They told Trump what needed to be done, and he said yes. SK even told the American Govt., press, people what was going to happen at the WH in a press briefing they held. S K President came to W H and had a meeting with Trump where he gave Trump what SK would like to have. (His plan had been cleared by China, Russia, Japan, NK  before he told Trump). Trump cancelled his meeting with NK. SK got involved again and both NK, SK held a meeting, and China did a back door approach. Trump put meeting back on. Good thing. They held the meeting and it went fine and SK type plan approved. Now SK will take the lead and handle what happens in their home land with NK. China will be the overseaer behind the scenes as all of the powers in the area want the same thing. Trump will be made to feel like he is king. If Trump screws it up. NK, and SK make a peace treaty. SK takes Trump up on his desire an gets US Troops out. Closer relations are helped along with regional powers China, Russia, Japan, and it might even include Australia. New trading block, and could be defence agreement. NK gets rid of Nukes. China is main power in new group. US now on sidelines and that is what the area powers want if it happens. This is what happened in the middle east (Syria). Russia now leads that block with Turkey as back up.

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