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Honored Social Butterfly

Garry Kasparov: The danger of nominating Sanders

Garry Kasparov: The danger of nominating Sanders

Opinion by Garry Kasparov

 

This is an op-ed from former Russian Chess Champion Garry Kaparov on why it would be so dangerous to nominate Bernie Sanders.. Here's a brief sample from the article, which I consider must reading. 

 

"It would be a cruel twist to have a president who admires Russia's current dictatorship running against a challenger who praised our old one."

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/05/opinions/danger-of-nominating-sanders-kasparov/index.html

Honored Social Butterfly

We've only talked about Medicare for All. However, please note that Bernie has a wide array of plans which will expand the size of the federal budget and increase taxes. Donald Trump would love to run against Bernie.

 

Bernie's plans include:

  • Medicare for All 
  • Green New Deal
  • Housing for All
  • Cancel Student Debt
  • Universal Childcare
  • College for All
  • Expanding Social Security
  • Cancel Medical Debt
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Chasky referred to the Ivy League studes of MFA. Just because they came from Yale or Harvard doesn't make them accurate. The studies made several assumptions about health care costs and there are many who disagree with their assumptions. Here's one analysis of those studies. 

 

Sanders was once again asked how he would pay for the plan. He responded by citing a study "that just came out of Yale University, published in Lancet magazine, one of the prestigious medical journals in the world." The study, co-written by a former unpaid Sanders adviser, purports to show that Sanders' Medicare for All plan would save $450 billion a year, and 68,000 lives. 

 

A detailed article produced by Kaiser Health News and Politifact, however, rates Sanders' claim "mostly false." The true part is that such a study exists. The false rating comes from the story's conclusion that the Lancet study's major findings are wildly disingenuous because they ignore or discount much of the evidence about what effects such a program would have on the health care system.

 

The Lancet study assumes, for example, that the Sanders plan could pay Medicare rates across the board. Medicare rates are far lower than private insurance rates, and the hospital lobby is a powerful political force that has successfully fought off payment reductions in multiple venues. When Washington state set up a government-run health insurance plan, state lawmakers ended up boosting rates to about 170 percent of what Medicare pays. 

 

The Lancet study Sanders cites also lowballs the likely increase in utilization that would come from eliminating co-payments and other cost-sharing mechanisms, as Sanders' Medicare for All plan calls for. Although it allows that the newly insured would use more care, it assumes that the currently insured would not seek to use more health services. As Harvard health policy researcher Adrianna McIntyre points out, that's deeply unrealistic. 

 

Beyond the clear evidence from health policy research, it is worth thinking about this claim if it were in reverse: Supporters of Sanders' Medicare for All plan sometimes portray copayments, premiums, and other forms of cost-sharing as obstacles to accessing health care services, which is presumably why the Sanders plan eliminates them. If adding cost-sharing to a health care system would reduce access, and thus reduce utilization, then  removing cost-sharing would produce the opposite effect in the form of increased utilization, and thus increased spending. 

 

There are other problems as well, most notably that the study simply doesn't account for about $4 trillion in expected long-term care spending that would be part of the bill under Sanders' Medicare for All plan. 


There is always that ONE study. Experts dismiss it, but the candidate can ride it all season. 
Right now, it is the Yale study supporting BernieCare.

The study claiming M4A would lower national health spending, that:
1) Forgot to score the $4T long-term care provisions.
2) Forgot to account for utilization increases from ending cost-sharing.
3) Assumed it can root out waste while eviscerating the categories that police waste.

And as McIntyre also points out, the study handwaves away research suggesting that its headline "lives saved" figure is substantially overstated. The authors pull a favorable number from a single 2009 study, note the existence of some other research that would result in a much lower number of saved lives, and then call their own number "highly conservative."

 

One might argue that this is only one study. And Sanders made the case last night that there's a large body of evidence to support his contention that his plan would save money, indeed, he claimed that there is no dispute whatsoever about this conclusion. "What every study out there, conservative or progressive says, Medicare for All will save money," he said. 

In this case, Sanders' claim is not mostly false. It is flatly untrue. 

 

study by the left-leaning Urban Institute, for example, found that total health care spending in the U.S. would increase by $7 trillion over a decade under a Medicare for All-like single-payer plan, even making allowances for savings from lower prices and administrative costs.

 

Philip Klein of The Washington Examiner points to several other studies undercutting Sanders' claim as well.

 

https://reason.com/2020/02/26/bernie-sanders-new-favorite-medicare-for-all-study-has-major-problems/

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Chasky wrote, "Oh but yes Gruffstuff did say that. Here is copied straight from the posting that you replied to and if you don't believe that go back and look:"

 

Go back and check, you're wrong, Gruffstuff wrote that AFTER I replied to her post. Therefore, when I replied, I had no idea she was referring to that part of Kasparov's article.

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Gruffstuff unfairly painted an incorrect perception of my argument when she said, "So you're saying the have nots can not have health care,  because that's the only way what you say makes sense."

 

I never once said the above and I would appreciate it if Gruffstuff would stop doing that. I think fixing the flaws in Obamacare and essentially offering a Public Option, would translate into outstanding health care for Americans. I wish she would stop pretending that MFA is the only real health care option. 

 

Fixing Obamacare is much more cost effective than going with MFA and it's something we could do virtually overnight.

 

Remember, even Bernie acknowledges that MFA will cost somewhere around $35 Trillion over the next decade. The entire federal budget over the next 10 years, without MFA, will be arouind $40 Trillion. Essentially doubling the federal budget and destroying our economy to implement MFA, is not my idea of making life better for Americans.

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Honored Social Butterfly

Chasky made some good points, but he was using logic and facts. I was talking about percpetion, which very often, is not based upon reality or the facts. The Republicans would paint Bernie as a communist who supports communism and their dictators around the world. You, I , and other intelligent people, will know that's a lie. But I'm concerned about the perceptions of blue collar workers in the all important purple (battleground) states. In this election, we don't have any margin for errors.

 

As I stated previously, many blue collar workers actually hear "communist" when the the word socialist is mentioned. Once again, perception is often more important than reality and the truth.

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Gruffstuff, we're talking about MFA almost doubling the sise of the federal budget, which could cripple our economy big time. If people can't find jobs, their lives will deteriorate rapdily and health care wil become a secondary concern.

 

Please stop making this sound like MFA or NO health care,  because that's not true and you know it. Improving Obamacare and offering a Public Option is cost effective and a great way to provide decent health care for everyone. And unlike MFA, it's a realistic option which could be implemented almost immediately.

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@CriticalThinking wrote:

Gruffstuff, we're talking about MFA almost doubling the sise of the federal budget,


As I stated before, Yale's and Harvard's independent studies both agreed that MFA would not "double the size of the federal budget", but would save  hundreds of billions yearly.  Funny that those who oppose Medicare for All never reference to those studies.


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
Honored Social Butterfly

Gruffstuff, we're talking about MFA almost doubling the sise of the federal budget, which could cripple our economy big time. If people can't find jobs, their lives will deteriorate rapdily and health care wil become a secondary concern.

 

So you're saying the have nots can not have health care,  because that's the only way what you say makes sense.

 

It doesn't cost more to provide health care though MFA then the ACA, unless you don't actually provide health care for tens of millions of people and under insure tens of millions more.

 

 

Honored Social Butterfly

Apparently some forum members missed the meaning of my previous comments. I am not saying MFA is a bad idea on its merits, because in theory, it's a good thing. However, a bad idea is proposing a program which will almost double the size of the federal government over the next decade. There are a lot of things in life we want but we can't afford them. 

 

In addition, Bernie will not allow American consumers to make a choice. If MFA is so good, why does he want to force everyone on the  program?

 

More importantly, if you want to see Comrade Trump re-elected, nominate Bernie Sanders. Here are several reasons, he's a socialist, there will be higher taxes, no personal choice for health insurance, and there will be a major expansion of the federal government.

 

If you like the idea of improving Obamacare and adding a Public Option, support Joe Biden and take down Donald Trump.

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There are a lot of things in life we want but we can't afford them.

 

We're not talking about inground pools.

 

We're talking about being able to afford health care.

 

It's not the things we want in life, it's the things we need to live life.

 

Like food, water, shelter, and health care.

Honored Social Butterfly

I like Biden's strategy much better. He wants to improve the flaws in Obamacare and add a Public Option (which is what Obama originally wanted). I think the Public Option is the best solution.

 

Gruffstuff asked, "Then why don't you just say that?"

 

I'm confused. Didn't I just say that above?

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@CriticalThinking wrote:

I like Biden's strategy much better. He wants to improve the flaws in Obamacare and add a Public Option (which is what Obama originally wanted). I think the Public Option is the best solution.

 

Gruffstuff asked, "Then why don't you just say that?"

 

I'm confused. Didn't I just say that above?


Gruffstuff also said "Instead of comparing Sanders to Stalin.".   So what about that part?


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
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Chasky said, "Gruffstuff also said "Instead of comparing Sanders to Stalin.".   So what about that part?"

 

Gruffstuff never said that. If she would have directly said that, I would have addressed it. And I never compared Sanders with Stalin, so please don't say that. 

 

I was repeating the arguments of Garry Kasparov, many of which I liked. However, it doesn't mean I agreed with everything he said in his article. That's the picture of Bernie, which will be painted by the Republicans. But since you asked, let me address this again, as I did in another post. 

 

I'm talking about perception, not reality. I'm talking about the blue collar voters in the all important battleground states of Mich. PA, Ohio, Wisc and FL, where the election will be decided. The following is what will almost certainly happen if Bernie gets the nomination. 

 

In 2016, whenever Hillary's name was mentioned during the campaign, the words "Private Email Server" always accompanied her name. That probably cost her the election. If Bernie gets the nomination, every time his name is mentioned, you will hear the word "Socialist".

 

What do blue collars really hear when the word "socialist" is mentioned? They hear the word communist and they will never vote for a communist. They would much rather hold their nose and vote for Trump.

 

November 2020 is the election of our lifetime. We have a clear choice between preserving our democracy and the values we cherish, or going with 4 more years of Trump and probably watching our country turn into a dictatorship. Why would any intelligent person take the risk of nominating someone who will be perceived as a communist, which would enhance the chances of Donald Trump getting re-elected?

 

 

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@CriticalThinking wrote:

Chasky said, "Gruffstuff also said "Instead of comparing Sanders to Stalin.".   So what about that part?"

 

Gruffstuff never said that. If she would have directly said that, I would have addressed it. And I never compared Sanders with Stalin, so please don't say that. 

 


Oh but yes Gruffstuff did say that. Here is copied straight from the posting that you replied to and if you don't believe that go back and look:

 

Then why don't you just say that?

 

Instead of comparing Sanders to Stalin.

 

You cherry-picked the first sentence and left the last out.


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
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"It would be a cruel twist to have a president who admires Russia's current dictatorship running against a challenger who praised our old one."

 

So basically we have to look out for the totalitarianism of current day Germany.

 

I think I understand.

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The merits of Universal Health Care aren't the issue for me and many others. The issues are forcing everyone to give up private health insurance and the staggering cost of MFA. In other words, it's probably a good idea,  but MFA will almost double the federal budget over the next decade.

 

That's why I like Biden's strategy much better. He wants to improve the flaws in Obamacare and add a Public Option (which is what Obama originally wanted). I think the Public Option is the best solution.

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@CriticalThinking wrote:

  but MFA will almost double the federal budget over the next decade.

 


Funny, but Yale and Harvard studies disagree wtih that. Both say that it would save hundreds of billions of dollars a year.  I would say that their studies are the most non-political studies  available.


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
Honored Social Butterfly

The merits of Universal Health Care aren't the issue for me and many others.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course not. We've got Medicare. We like Medicare. The nerve of young people wanting Medicare, too. Let them wait until they're 65 like we did. If they don't like it, they can move to any of the many countries that provide healthcare for all its people. 

 

Joe Biden: "And so, the younger generation now tells me how tough things are — give me a break!.

No no, I have no empathy for it. Give me a break."

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@gordyfl wrote:

The merits of Universal Health Care aren't the issue for me and many others.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course not. We've got Medicare. We like Medicare. The nerve of young people wanting Medicare, too. Let them wait until they're 65 like we did. If they don't like it, they can move to any of the many countries that provide healthcare for all its people. 

 

Joe Biden: "And so, the younger generation now tells me how tough things are — give me a break!.

No no, I have no empathy for it. Give me a break."


Medicare originally was a plan presented that was meant for all Americans, this was the idea at it's conception. Congress decided to put it into place only for those 65 and older. WE would be much better off today if we had adopted it for everyone then.


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
Honored Social Butterfly


@ChasKy53 wrote:

@gordyfl wrote:

The merits of Universal Health Care aren't the issue for me and many others.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course not. We've got Medicare. We like Medicare. The nerve of young people wanting Medicare, too. Let them wait until they're 65 like we did. If they don't like it, they can move to any of the many countries that provide healthcare for all its people. 

 

Joe Biden: "And so, the younger generation now tells me how tough things are — give me a break!.

No no, I have no empathy for it. Give me a break."


Medicare originally was a plan presented that was meant for all Americans, this was the idea at it's conception. Congress decided to put it into place only for those 65 and older. WE would be much better off today if we had adopted it for everyone then.


Congress in their weird moment of wisdom decided this because they realized that savings would be all the working years until age 65 and then monthly payments would be made by the recipient.  If all got it, the debt would grow and grow since the "savings part" did not grow for some 40-45 years before collection. That is why the "Medicare for All" will never fly.  You have some teenager collecting from it before putting any money in, resulting in seniors getting nothing.

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I like Biden's strategy much better. He wants to improve the flaws in Obamacare and add a Public Option (which is what Obama originally wanted). I think the Public Option is the best solution.

 

Then why don't you just say that?

 

Instead of comparing Sanders to Stalin.

Honored Social Butterfly


@gruffstuff wrote:

I like Biden's strategy much better. He wants to improve the flaws in Obamacare and add a Public Option (which is what Obama originally wanted). I think the Public Option is the best solution.

 

Then why don't you just say that?

 

Instead of comparing Sanders to Stalin.


Thank you very much. Some Biden supporters like to denigrate Sanders in the same ways that tRump supporters denigrate anyone criticizing tRump. It's just not necessary and lacks class.

 


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
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Obviously Lew doesn't like Kasparov, but his dislike of the man is not the subject of this thread. I happen to think Kasparov made several good points about Bernie.

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Criticalthinking wrote ---Garry Kasparov: The danger of nominating Sanders
Opinion by Garry Kasparov
**********



IF Bernie is able to win the nomination, the GOP PACs and Trump campaign will hang him by his own words, in his own voice, from videos of him speaking in the Soviet Union, speaking in Burlington City Hall in glowing terms of Soviet and Cuban leaders and programs.   Just recently, Sanders defended his early convictions as apparently it matters not if the socialist countries murder or torture as long as they provide education and healthcare.  

Sanders hung a Soviet flag in his office in honor of Burlington’s Soviet sister city, Yaroslavl, where he honeymooned in 1988 with his second wife.   

THEN his ideology     ..Single-payer health care has already been tried—and failed—in Sanders’s home state of Vermont, where the proposal collapsed under its own weight last year.   Sanders wants to break up the tech--companies. and hasn't learned anything  since     AT&T was actually broken up by the government in 1984. In fact, it was broken up into eight different companies. Today, almost all those companies are once again part of AT&T  

Honored Social Butterfly

IF Bernie is able to win the nomination, the GOP PACs and Trump campaign will hang him by his own words, in his own voice, from videos of him speaking in the Soviet Union, speaking in Burlington City Hall in glowing terms of Soviet and Cuban leaders and programs. 

 

You're going back to a time when Bernie was Mayor of Burlington, during which time he was voted among "America's Best Mayors" by U.S. News and Report.

 

bernie america best mayor.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

Social Butterfly


@JANMB wrote:

Criticalthinking wrote ---Garry Kasparov: The danger of nominating Sanders
Opinion by Garry Kasparov
**********



IF Bernie is able to win the nomination, the GOP PACs and Trump campaign will hang him by his own words, in his own voice, from videos of him speaking in the Soviet Union, speaking in Burlington City Hall in glowing terms of Soviet and Cuban leaders and programs.   Just recently, Sanders defended his early convictions as apparently it matters not if the socialist countries murder or torture as long as they provide education and healthcare.  

Sanders hung a Soviet flag in his office in honor of Burlington’s Soviet sister city, Yaroslavl, where he honeymooned in 1988 with his second wife.   

THEN his ideology     ..Single-payer health care has already been tried—and failed—in Sanders’s home state of Vermont, where the proposal collapsed under its own weight last year.   Sanders wants to break up the tech--companies. and hasn't learned anything  since     AT&T was actually broken up by the government in 1984. In fact, it was broken up into eight different companies. Today, almost all those companies are once again part of AT&T  


Universal health care has been proven to work in Norway, Denmark, Sweden and all over Europe. Universal health care is not some new, untested, communist program that lowers the effectiveness of health care systems. It's spread across Europe because it works. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honored Social Butterfly


@LouLit01 wrote:

@JANMB wrote:

Criticalthinking wrote ---Garry Kasparov: The danger of nominating Sanders
Opinion by Garry Kasparov
**********



IF Bernie is able to win the nomination, the GOP PACs and Trump campaign will hang him by his own words, in his own voice, from videos of him speaking in the Soviet Union, speaking in Burlington City Hall in glowing terms of Soviet and Cuban leaders and programs.   Just recently, Sanders defended his early convictions as apparently it matters not if the socialist countries murder or torture as long as they provide education and healthcare.  

Sanders hung a Soviet flag in his office in honor of Burlington’s Soviet sister city, Yaroslavl, where he honeymooned in 1988 with his second wife.   

THEN his ideology     ..Single-payer health care has already been tried—and failed—in Sanders’s home state of Vermont, where the proposal collapsed under its own weight last year.   Sanders wants to break up the tech--companies. and hasn't learned anything  since     AT&T was actually broken up by the government in 1984. In fact, it was broken up into eight different companies. Today, almost all those companies are once again part of AT&T  


Universal health care has been proven to work in Norway, Denmark, Sweden and all over Europe. Universal health care is not some new, untested, communist program that lowers the effectiveness of health care systems. It's spread across Europe because it works. 

 


Thank you very much for telling the truth. Our lawmakers cater to the GIANT Pharma Corporations, Insurance Corporations, Medical Products Corporations and Health Care Provider Corporations who donate $Billions$ in campaign finance and lobby $Millions$ in Washington  That is the real reason we don't already have a Universal Health Care Plan like Medicare For All in America. That is the reason that so many other countries in the world lead us in actual health statistics and that people on the average aren't as healthy in America, the average life expectancy is shorter in America, and the infant death rate is higher in America.


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
Regular Contributor

I don't agree with everything Garry Kasparov says, but then I don't agree with everything anybody says ... but I did happen to see this little gem and thought it very appropriate.

 

Quote:

Democracy says "trust me because we must trust each other to thrive". Authoritarians say "trust me because you have no choice" and as quickly as possible shift to repression and discarding trust entirely.

 

Now doesn't that sounds familiar?

Honored Social Butterfly

Here's another interesting comment from Kasparov.

 

"As one study found, a Sanders candidacy is more likely to increase turnout for Trump, not the Democrats. In contrast, a moderate Democrat need only attract a few of the many disgruntled Trump voters, or keep them at home, requiring no miraculous transformation of the electorate (a transformation, incidentally, that for Sanders failed to materialize in the Super Tuesday primaries, as young voters, once again largely stayed home)"

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