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Re: Fences Don't Work?

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@sp362 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

A wall or fence is one deterrent for illegal entry - no more no less. Of course radical liberals will tell you to prove that it will keep them out. It won't but it is one tool in the arsenal of tools along with electronic surveillance/cameras, patrols, monitoring by drones/satellite, etc.


My problem with a wall is that it is NOT a cost effective deterrent.  For the amount of money we will spend to build it and maintain it, we should be demanding some sort of "proof" that it will actually work.  I have no problem with more cost effective controls.


Since you are always asking for "proof" of everything, why not show "proof" why a wall is NOT cost effective and the fact that the left says it, is NOT proof!


Show me one example where we have physical walls without guards and I will agree with you.  In the meantime, the virtual wall that you described will be just as effective and much cheaper.


So you make a statement that the wall is not cost effective (of course without proof - just your opinion), I ask you for proof (since you are always asking everyone else to prove their opinion), and then you tell me to show an example where a wall works without guards?????

 

First of all, I mentioned that is is one tool to be used to keep people out and I also said it won't do the job itself and now you change the parameters. Typical liberal strategy.


You keep trying to twist my words around by changing what I said.  Where did I "change the parameters"?  You also try to dismiss responding by simply saying "liberal ideas".  My point is the same that always been, A PHYSICAL WALL IS NOT WORTH THE MONEY.


My OPINION is the wall is worth the cost. Your OPINION is that it isn't, so there we are again at a stalemate. I could use your approach and tell you to prove your opinion (a gambit used by the left all the time) but I won't since it is only your opinion. Opinions can't be proved.


Yes, it is your OPINION.  So, why should MY tax dollars be wasted on somebodies OPINION without some kind of study it will work?  Because of who suggested it?


"Work" has many different levels of success. Totally work means as a stand alone solution, no more work or money is needed. I always said it is a partial solution, so now you are saying if the partial solution is cost justified, you would accept it. This is a much better answer than prove your opinion!


Yes, I think it is a more cost effective solution to build the "virtual wall" that you described (at least I think it was you) in an earlier post.  If a physical will not substantially fox more of the issue than the virtual wall, then we should not be spending money to build it.


You must be thinking of another poster since I never said I wanted a virtual wall. We have a virtual wall now and it really doesn't work. What we need is a real wall along with border agents and electronic surveillance. They all go hand in hand!

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Re: Fences Don't Work?

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Old Witch
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Re: Fences Don't Work?

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Message 3 of 81

@sp362 wrote:

@aruzinsky wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@aruzinsky wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

A wall or fence is one deterrent for illegal entry - no more no less. Of course radical liberals will tell you to prove that it will keep them out. It won't but it is one tool in the arsenal of tools along with electronic surveillance/cameras, patrols, monitoring by drones/satellite, etc.


My problem with a wall is that it is NOT a cost effective deterrent.  For the amount of money we will spend to build it and maintain it, we should be demanding some sort of "proof" that it will actually work.  I have no problem with more cost effective controls.


You have an error of logic because there likely would be no cost for maintenance without first proving that the wall works.  Building the wall, without maintaining it, would empirically prove that the wall does or doesn't work.  If it doesn't work, we probably won't maintain it therefore the amount of money to maintain it will probably never be spent.  If it does work, you would have your proof before spending  money for maintenance.  The cost of building the wall is the cost of proof.


That is a ridiculous and costly way to provide any type of justification to build it in the first place.  Also, I thought you were a Libertarian?  Last time I checked true Libertarians were against a wall (in fact, they are for open borders.)


Every experiment has a cost and, in applied research, one has to determine whether that cost is worth the probability of success.  Or, you can look at it as pure research, in which case, there is no goal other than education.

 

I do not imitate what other people calling themselves "libertarian" do.  My libertarian policies follow from a single premise the way geometric theorems follow from a few axioms. That premise is, "I want to give every adult maximum freedom to die of his/her own stupidity, while protecting them from other people's stupidity."  


So, if what you are advocating is anarchy and every man for himself, why do you want a wall?  For that matter, why would you want police or any law enforcement?


No anarchy.  What part of "while protecting them from other people's stupidity" didn't you understand?  In the present context, that includes a wall to protect me from Mexican stupidity.  Illegal Mexicans are coming to the US because they are too stupid to raise their standard of living in Mexico.  Last time I checked, Mexico was a democracy and not a dictatorship, therefore they are fleeing themselves while bringing the causes of their misery to the US.  

Old Witch
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Re: Fences Don't Work?

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Message 4 of 81

@sp362 wrote:
  Better yet, crack down on the employers and remove their reason for wanting to enter the country in the first place.

 

We have the laws. They are federal. Enforcing them would end our illegal immigration problem.That begs two questions? Why doesn't our federal DOJ enforce those laws and why has not one Republican or Democrat in the Congress demand it do that.?

 

Note: The employment laws in Canada and Mexico are enforced. That is the only reason those countries do not have an illegal immigrant problem. No work, they cannot stay, they do not come.

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

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Re: Fences Don't Work?

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Message 5 of 81

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

Physical barriers are used at airports as part of the total security package. The same applies to our borders.

 

You mean the same chain link fence that some homeowner's use around their properties?  Without airport security, these would do nothing to keep people who really want to get in from getting in.  Just like at your home, the purpose of this fence is to keep something (like a dog) in, not keep a burglar out.


 Did I say a homeowner's chain link fence? As to the airport, as I said "as part of the total security package". 


 


A chain link fence is what is around the majority of airports,  My point has always been that building a wall along our Southern Border is simply a waste of money.  There are cheaper ways to secure the border than spending money on a wall.


Area security - airport or whatever - is a package deal with physical barriers as part of the package. A wall is not "the answer" it is "part of the answer".


As far as airports, what motivation does anybody have to get on a tarmac?  A virtual wall should accomplish the same as a physical wall at less of a cost.  Better yet, crack down on the employers and remove their reason for wanting to enter the country in the first place.


As I said, physical barriers are only one element in the total package. I don't know what you mean by a virtual wall but O.K. and as to fining employers - sure, one more piece.

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Message 6 of 81

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

Physical barriers are used at airports as part of the total security package. The same applies to our borders.

 

You mean the same chain link fence that some homeowner's use around their properties?  Without airport security, these would do nothing to keep people who really want to get in from getting in.  Just like at your home, the purpose of this fence is to keep something (like a dog) in, not keep a burglar out.


 Did I say a homeowner's chain link fence? As to the airport, as I said "as part of the total security package". 


 


A chain link fence is what is around the majority of airports,  My point has always been that building a wall along our Southern Border is simply a waste of money.  There are cheaper ways to secure the border than spending money on a wall.


Area security - airport or whatever - is a package deal with physical barriers as part of the package. A wall is not "the answer" it is "part of the answer".


As far as airports, what motivation does anybody have to get on a tarmac?  A virtual wall should accomplish the same as a physical wall at less of a cost.  Better yet, crack down on the employers and remove their reason for wanting to enter the country in the first place.

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Re: Fences Don't Work?

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Message 7 of 81

@aruzinsky wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@aruzinsky wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

A wall or fence is one deterrent for illegal entry - no more no less. Of course radical liberals will tell you to prove that it will keep them out. It won't but it is one tool in the arsenal of tools along with electronic surveillance/cameras, patrols, monitoring by drones/satellite, etc.


My problem with a wall is that it is NOT a cost effective deterrent.  For the amount of money we will spend to build it and maintain it, we should be demanding some sort of "proof" that it will actually work.  I have no problem with more cost effective controls.


You have an error of logic because there likely would be no cost for maintenance without first proving that the wall works.  Building the wall, without maintaining it, would empirically prove that the wall does or doesn't work.  If it doesn't work, we probably won't maintain it therefore the amount of money to maintain it will probably never be spent.  If it does work, you would have your proof before spending  money for maintenance.  The cost of building the wall is the cost of proof.


That is a ridiculous and costly way to provide any type of justification to build it in the first place.  Also, I thought you were a Libertarian?  Last time I checked true Libertarians were against a wall (in fact, they are for open borders.)


Every experiment has a cost and, in applied research, one has to determine whether that cost is worth the probability of success.  Or, you can look at it as pure research, in which case, there is no goal other than education.

 

I do not imitate what other people calling themselves "libertarian" do.  My libertarian policies follow from a single premise the way geometric theorems follow from a few axioms. That premise is, "I want to give every adult maximum freedom to die of his/her own stupidity, while protecting them from other people's stupidity."  


So, if what you are advocating is anarchy and every man for himself, why do you want a wall?  For that matter, why would you want police or any law enforcement?

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Re: Fences Don't Work?

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Message 8 of 81

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

Physical barriers are used at airports as part of the total security package. The same applies to our borders.

 

You mean the same chain link fence that some homeowner's use around their properties?  Without airport security, these would do nothing to keep people who really want to get in from getting in.  Just like at your home, the purpose of this fence is to keep something (like a dog) in, not keep a burglar out.


 Did I say a homeowner's chain link fence? As to the airport, as I said "as part of the total security package". 


 


A chain link fence is what is around the majority of airports,  My point has always been that building a wall along our Southern Border is simply a waste of money.  There are cheaper ways to secure the border than spending money on a wall.


Area security - airport or whatever - is a package deal with physical barriers as part of the package. A wall is not "the answer" it is "part of the answer".

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Re: Fences Don't Work?

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Message 9 of 81

@sp362 wrote:

@aruzinsky wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

A wall or fence is one deterrent for illegal entry - no more no less. Of course radical liberals will tell you to prove that it will keep them out. It won't but it is one tool in the arsenal of tools along with electronic surveillance/cameras, patrols, monitoring by drones/satellite, etc.


My problem with a wall is that it is NOT a cost effective deterrent.  For the amount of money we will spend to build it and maintain it, we should be demanding some sort of "proof" that it will actually work.  I have no problem with more cost effective controls.


You have an error of logic because there likely would be no cost for maintenance without first proving that the wall works.  Building the wall, without maintaining it, would empirically prove that the wall does or doesn't work.  If it doesn't work, we probably won't maintain it therefore the amount of money to maintain it will probably never be spent.  If it does work, you would have your proof before spending  money for maintenance.  The cost of building the wall is the cost of proof.


That is a ridiculous and costly way to provide any type of justification to build it in the first place.  Also, I thought you were a Libertarian?  Last time I checked true Libertarians were against a wall (in fact, they are for open borders.)


Every experiment has a cost and, in applied research, one has to determine whether that cost is worth the probability of success.  Or, you can look at it as pure research, in which case, there is no goal other than education.

 

I do not imitate what other people calling themselves "libertarian" do.  My libertarian policies follow from a single premise the way geometric theorems follow from a few axioms. That premise is, "I want to give every adult maximum freedom to die of his/her own stupidity, while protecting them from other people's stupidity."  

Old Witch
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Re: Fences Don't Work?

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Message 10 of 81

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

A wall or fence is one deterrent for illegal entry - no more no less. Of course radical liberals will tell you to prove that it will keep them out. It won't but it is one tool in the arsenal of tools along with electronic surveillance/cameras, patrols, monitoring by drones/satellite, etc.


My problem with a wall is that it is NOT a cost effective deterrent.  For the amount of money we will spend to build it and maintain it, we should be demanding some sort of "proof" that it will actually work.  I have no problem with more cost effective controls.


Since you are always asking for "proof" of everything, why not show "proof" why a wall is NOT cost effective and the fact that the left says it, is NOT proof!


Show me one example where we have physical walls without guards and I will agree with you.  In the meantime, the virtual wall that you described will be just as effective and much cheaper.


So you make a statement that the wall is not cost effective (of course without proof - just your opinion), I ask you for proof (since you are always asking everyone else to prove their opinion), and then you tell me to show an example where a wall works without guards?????

 

First of all, I mentioned that is is one tool to be used to keep people out and I also said it won't do the job itself and now you change the parameters. Typical liberal strategy.


You keep trying to twist my words around by changing what I said.  Where did I "change the parameters"?  You also try to dismiss responding by simply saying "liberal ideas".  My point is the same that always been, A PHYSICAL WALL IS NOT WORTH THE MONEY.


My OPINION is the wall is worth the cost. Your OPINION is that it isn't, so there we are again at a stalemate. I could use your approach and tell you to prove your opinion (a gambit used by the left all the time) but I won't since it is only your opinion. Opinions can't be proved.


Yes, it is your OPINION.  So, why should MY tax dollars be wasted on somebodies OPINION without some kind of study it will work?  Because of who suggested it?


"Work" has many different levels of success. Totally work means as a stand alone solution, no more work or money is needed. I always said it is a partial solution, so now you are saying if the partial solution is cost justified, you would accept it. This is a much better answer than prove your opinion!


Yes, I think it is a more cost effective solution to build the "virtual wall" that you described (at least I think it was you) in an earlier post.  If a physical will not substantially fox more of the issue than the virtual wall, then we should not be spending money to build it.

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