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Re: Democratic socialism

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Message 271 of 280

[Rich] after 8 years of Bush. He did almost kill the free enterprise system all by himself.

 

What did Bush do to almost kill the free enterprise system??

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Re: Democratic socialism

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@KidBoy2 wrote:
Rich posted..

So, it would seem that for 99% of the American population, a tilt toward Democratic Socialism would seem to be in their own self interest.


it would seem? really?

The middle class has not done well under the 7 years of Obama.

Private sector jobs is what we need.

Well, they survived under 7 years of Obama which was seriously in doubt after 8 years of Bush. He did almost kill the free enterprise system all by himself.

 

Still, the forces pushing the middle class today come more from the destruction of unions and automation.  The rich own the means of productivity and the middle class are no longer able to negotiate as a block like they do in, say, Germany. Those changes are not due to Obama but the Republicans in state and federal offices.

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Re: Democratic socialism

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Message 273 of 280

@jimc91 wrote:

@Richva wrote:

 

 

As they say, the proof is in the pudding. Germany has been doing very nicely with "Democratic Socialism" for quite a while. Improved standards of living for the majority of the population and six million jobs waiting to be filled.  America, known for Rabid Capitalism, has seen a huge decline in middle class net worth along with a huge increase in the "top 1%" net worth. 

 

So, it would seem that for 99% of the American population, a tilt toward Democratic Socialism would seem to be in their own self interest. 


 

Germany is a democratic, federal parliamentary republic, and federal legislative power is vested in the Bundestag (the parliament of Germany) and the Bundesrat (the representative body of the Länder, Germany's regional states).

 

There is a multi-party system that, since 1949, has been dominated by the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD). The judiciary of Germany is independent of the executive and the legislature. The political system is laid out in the 1949 constitution, the Grundgesetz (Basic Law), which remained in effect with minor amendments after German reunification in 1990.

 

The constitution emphasizes the protection of individual liberty in an extensive catalogue of human and civil rights and divides powers both between the federal and state levels and between the legislative, executive and judicial branches.

 

Germany was a founding member of the European Community in 1958, which became the EU in 1993. It is part of the Schengen Area, and has been a member of the eurozone since 1999. It is a member of the United NationsNATO, the G8, the G20 and the OECD.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Germany


Sounds like you want to define the philosophy you are trying to demonize.  If the discussion is about "what is a democratic socialist", then have at it. I have no interest in picking apart definitions.  On the other hand, if you can point to an example of democratic socialism in practice, then we discuss the merits.

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Re: Democratic socialism

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Message 274 of 280

 

What a bunch of bull.  You don't call the Military a socialist orginization when every military in the world is as socialist as China, U.S., North Korea, Great Britian etc.  But the U.S. Military fights wars for people who criticize their structure.  Same as work where Teamwork is stressed all for one and one for all.  And football and base ball.  Even the name the United States, United as socialism.  But when it comes to your money soclialist suddenly becomes a bad word.

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Re: Democratic socialism

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Message 275 of 280

@jimc91 wrote:

Democratic socialism is a political ideology advocating a democratic political system alongside a socialist economic system, involving a combination of political democracy (usually multi-party democracy) with social ownership of the means of production. Although sometimes used synonymously with "socialism", the adjective "democratic" is sometimes added to distinguish itself from non-democratic forms of socialism, such as the Marxist–Leninist brand of socialism.[1]

 

Democratic socialism is usually distinguished from both the Soviet model of centralized socialism and social democracy. This distinction arose from the authoritarian form of government and centralized economic system that emerged in the Soviet Union during the 20th century.[2] A distinction is also made between democratic socialism and social democracy in that the former is committed to systemic transformation of the economy while the latter is not.[3]

 

Democratic socialism rejects the social democratic view of reform through state intervention within capitalism, seeing capitalism as inherently incompatible with the democratic values of freedom, equality and solidarity. Democratic socialists believe that the issues inherent to capitalism can only be solved by transitioning from capitalism to socialism, by superseding private property with some form of social ownership, with any attempt to address the economic contradictions of capitalism through reforms only likely to generate more problems elsewhere in the capitalist economy.[4][5]

 

However, "democratic socialism" is sometimes used as a synonym for social democracy, where "social democracy" usually refers to support for political democracy, regulation of the capitalist economy, and a welfare state.[6]

 

Democratic socialism is not specifically revolutionary or reformist, as many types of democratic socialism can fall into either category, with some forms overlapping with social democracy. Some forms of democratic socialism accept social democratic reformism to gradually convert the capitalist economy to a socialist one using the pre-existing political democracy, while other forms are revolutionary in their political orientation and advocate for the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie and the capitalist economy.

 

Democratic socialism is defined[by whom?] as having a socialist economy in which the means of production are socially and collectively owned or controlled alongside a politically democratic system of government. The Cambridge Business English Dictionary defines democratic socialism as "a set of ​political beliefs and ​principles ​supporting ​equal ​opportunities for everyone, under a fairly ​elected ​parliament."[7]

 

Some tendencies of democratic socialism advocate for revolution in order to transition to socialism, sharply distinguishing it from social democracy.[8] For example, Peter Hain classifies democratic socialism, along with libertarian socialism, as a form of anti-authoritarian "socialism from below" (using the term popularised by Hal Draper), in contrast to Stalinism and social democracy, variants of authoritarian state socialism.

 

For Hain, this democratic/authoritarian divide is more important than the revolutionary/reformist divide.[9] In this type of democratic socialism, it is the active participation of the population as a whole, and workers in particular, in the management of economy that characterises democratic socialism, while nationalisation and economic planning (whether controlled by an elected government or not) are characteristic of state socialism. A similar, but more complex, argument is made by Nicos Poulantzas.[10] 

 

Draper himself uses the term "revolutionary-democratic socialism" as a type of socialism from below in his The Two Souls of Socialism. He writes: "the leading spokesman in the Second International of a revolutionary-democratic Socialism-from-Below [was] Rosa Luxemburg, who so emphatically put her faith and hope in the spontaneous struggle of a free working class that the myth-makers invented for her a 'theory of spontaneity'".[11]

 

 Similarly, about Eugene Debs, he writes: "'Debsian socialism' evoked a tremendous response from the heart of the people, but Debs had no successor as a tribune of revolutionary-democratic socialism."[12]

 

In contrast, other tendencies of democratic socialism advocate for socialism that follow a gradual, reformist or evolutionary path to socialism, rather than a revolutionary one.[13] Often, this tendency is invoked to distinguish democratic socialism from Marxist–Leninist socialism, as in Donald Busky's Democratic Socialism: A Global Survey,[14] Jim Tomlinson's Democratic Socialism and Economic Policy:

 

The Attlee Years, 1945-1951, Norman Thomas Democratic Socialism: a new appraisal or Roy Hattersley's Choose Freedom: The Future of Democratic Socialism. A variant of this set of definitions is Joseph Schumpeter's argument, set out in Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy (1941), that liberal democracies were evolving from "liberal capitalism" into democratic socialism, with the growth of workers' self-managementindustrial democracy and regulatory institutions.[15]

 

The Democratic Socialists of America defines democratic socialism as a movement to eliminate capitalism by evolving a "social order based on popular control of resources and production...".[16]

The term is sometimes used inaccurately and vaguely to refer to policies that are compatible with and exist within capitalism, as opposed to an ideology that aims to transcend or replace capitalism. Though this is not always the case. For example, Robert M. Page, a Reader in Democratic Socialism and Social Policy at the University of Birmingham, writes about "transformative democratic socialism" to refer to the politics of the Clement Attlee government (a strong welfare state, fiscal redistribution, some government ownership) and "revisionist democratic socialism," as developed by Anthony Crosland and Harold Wilson:

The most influential revisionist Labour thinker, Anthony Crosland..., contended that a more "benevolent" form of capitalism had emerged since the [Second World War] ... According to Crosland, it was now possible to achieve greater equality in society without the need for "fundamental" economic transformation. For Crosland, a more meaningful form of equality could be achieved if the growth dividend derived from effective management of the economy was invested in "pro-poor" public services rather than through fiscal redistribution.[17]

Some proponents of market socialism see it as an economic system compatible with the political ideology of democratic socialism.[18]

 

The term democratic socialism can be used even another way, to refer to a version of the Soviet model that was reformed in a democratic way. For example, Mikhail Gorbachev described perestroika as building a "new, humane and democratic socialism."[19] Consequently, some former Communist parties have rebranded themselves as democratic socialist, as with the Party of Democratic Socialism in Germany.

 

Justification of democratic socialism can be found in the works of social philosophers like Charles Taylor and Axel Honneth, among others. Honneth has put forward the view that political and economic ideologies have a social basis, that is, they originate from intersubjective communication between members of a society.[20]

 

Honneth criticises the liberal state because it assumes that principles of individual liberty and private property are ahistorical and abstract, when, in fact, they evolved from a specific social discourse on human activity. Contra liberal individualism, Honneth has emphasised the inter-subjective dependence between humans; that is, our well-being depends on recognising others and being recognised by them. Democratic socialism, with its emphasis on social collectivism, could be seen as a way of safeguarding this dependency.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

MY COMMENT:

 

Now I remember where I have seen this before...  I can't think of a country where this really worked out all that well for the "working people".

 

It also reminds me of the book/movies "Atlas Shrugged"....  It was all in the name of "fairness".

 

Just my opinion of course but I don't think this will work in the USA...


Did you get this story at your town meeting last night? It is evident that you nor your fellow town people did not understand it. I can understand why since your area of FL is not known for its thinking ability. It is far right. By the way did you get the story sheets on or off.

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Re: Democratic socialism

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Message 276 of 280
Rich posted..

So, it would seem that for 99% of the American population, a tilt toward Democratic Socialism would seem to be in their own self interest.


it would seem? really?

The middle class has not done well under the 7 years of Obama.

Private sector jobs is what we need.
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Re: Democratic socialism

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Message 277 of 280

@jimc91 wrote:

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

MY COMMENT:

 

Now I remember where I have seen this before...  I can't think of a country where this really worked out all that well for the "working people".

 

It also reminds me of the book/movies "Atlas Shrugged"....  It was all in the name of "fairness".

 

Just my opinion of course but I don't think this will work in the USA...


If this is about Bernie Sanders, wouldn't it be best to address the term Democratic Socialist as it applies to his ideology rather than waste time on a wiki description of true socialism? The article has little to do with what Bernie talks about (which a person would know if they were paying attention to him instead of talk radio). But I get it.......those on the right hear the word "socialism" and the synapses begin firing at warp speed like the atoms in a super-collider and they go into a knee-jerk frenzy. *sigh*

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Re: Democratic socialism

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@Richva wrote:

 

 

As they say, the proof is in the pudding. Germany has been doing very nicely with "Democratic Socialism" for quite a while. Improved standards of living for the majority of the population and six million jobs waiting to be filled.  America, known for Rabid Capitalism, has seen a huge decline in middle class net worth along with a huge increase in the "top 1%" net worth. 

 

So, it would seem that for 99% of the American population, a tilt toward Democratic Socialism would seem to be in their own self interest. 


 

Germany is a democratic, federal parliamentary republic, and federal legislative power is vested in the Bundestag (the parliament of Germany) and the Bundesrat (the representative body of the Länder, Germany's regional states).

 

There is a multi-party system that, since 1949, has been dominated by the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD). The judiciary of Germany is independent of the executive and the legislature. The political system is laid out in the 1949 constitution, the Grundgesetz (Basic Law), which remained in effect with minor amendments after German reunification in 1990.

 

The constitution emphasizes the protection of individual liberty in an extensive catalogue of human and civil rights and divides powers both between the federal and state levels and between the legislative, executive and judicial branches.

 

Germany was a founding member of the European Community in 1958, which became the EU in 1993. It is part of the Schengen Area, and has been a member of the eurozone since 1999. It is a member of the United NationsNATO, the G8, the G20 and the OECD.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Germany

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Re: Democratic socialism

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Message 279 of 280

Now I remember where I have seen this before...  I can't think of a country where this really worked out all that well for the "working people".

 

It also reminds me of the book/movies "Atlas Shrugged"....  It was all in the name of "fairness".

 

Just my opinion of course but I don't think this will work in the USA...

 

As they say, the proof is in the pudding. Germany has been doing very nicely with "Democratic Socialism" for quite a while. Improved standards of living for the majority of the population and six million jobs waiting to be filled.  America, known for Rabid Capitalism, has seen a huge decline in middle class net worth along with a huge increase in the "top 1%" net worth. 

 

So, it would seem that for 99% of the American population, a tilt toward Democratic Socialism would seem to be in their own self interest. 

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Democratic socialism

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Message 280 of 280

Democratic socialism is a political ideology advocating a democratic political system alongside a socialist economic system, involving a combination of political democracy (usually multi-party democracy) with social ownership of the means of production. Although sometimes used synonymously with "socialism", the adjective "democratic" is sometimes added to distinguish itself from non-democratic forms of socialism, such as the Marxist–Leninist brand of socialism.[1]

 

Democratic socialism is usually distinguished from both the Soviet model of centralized socialism and social democracy. This distinction arose from the authoritarian form of government and centralized economic system that emerged in the Soviet Union during the 20th century.[2] A distinction is also made between democratic socialism and social democracy in that the former is committed to systemic transformation of the economy while the latter is not.[3]

 

Democratic socialism rejects the social democratic view of reform through state intervention within capitalism, seeing capitalism as inherently incompatible with the democratic values of freedom, equality and solidarity. Democratic socialists believe that the issues inherent to capitalism can only be solved by transitioning from capitalism to socialism, by superseding private property with some form of social ownership, with any attempt to address the economic contradictions of capitalism through reforms only likely to generate more problems elsewhere in the capitalist economy.[4][5]

 

However, "democratic socialism" is sometimes used as a synonym for social democracy, where "social democracy" usually refers to support for political democracy, regulation of the capitalist economy, and a welfare state.[6]

 

Democratic socialism is not specifically revolutionary or reformist, as many types of democratic socialism can fall into either category, with some forms overlapping with social democracy. Some forms of democratic socialism accept social democratic reformism to gradually convert the capitalist economy to a socialist one using the pre-existing political democracy, while other forms are revolutionary in their political orientation and advocate for the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie and the capitalist economy.

 

Democratic socialism is defined[by whom?] as having a socialist economy in which the means of production are socially and collectively owned or controlled alongside a politically democratic system of government. The Cambridge Business English Dictionary defines democratic socialism as "a set of ​political beliefs and ​principles ​supporting ​equal ​opportunities for everyone, under a fairly ​elected ​parliament."[7]

 

Some tendencies of democratic socialism advocate for revolution in order to transition to socialism, sharply distinguishing it from social democracy.[8] For example, Peter Hain classifies democratic socialism, along with libertarian socialism, as a form of anti-authoritarian "socialism from below" (using the term popularised by Hal Draper), in contrast to Stalinism and social democracy, variants of authoritarian state socialism.

 

For Hain, this democratic/authoritarian divide is more important than the revolutionary/reformist divide.[9] In this type of democratic socialism, it is the active participation of the population as a whole, and workers in particular, in the management of economy that characterises democratic socialism, while nationalisation and economic planning (whether controlled by an elected government or not) are characteristic of state socialism. A similar, but more complex, argument is made by Nicos Poulantzas.[10] 

 

Draper himself uses the term "revolutionary-democratic socialism" as a type of socialism from below in his The Two Souls of Socialism. He writes: "the leading spokesman in the Second International of a revolutionary-democratic Socialism-from-Below [was] Rosa Luxemburg, who so emphatically put her faith and hope in the spontaneous struggle of a free working class that the myth-makers invented for her a 'theory of spontaneity'".[11]

 

 Similarly, about Eugene Debs, he writes: "'Debsian socialism' evoked a tremendous response from the heart of the people, but Debs had no successor as a tribune of revolutionary-democratic socialism."[12]

 

In contrast, other tendencies of democratic socialism advocate for socialism that follow a gradual, reformist or evolutionary path to socialism, rather than a revolutionary one.[13] Often, this tendency is invoked to distinguish democratic socialism from Marxist–Leninist socialism, as in Donald Busky's Democratic Socialism: A Global Survey,[14] Jim Tomlinson's Democratic Socialism and Economic Policy:

 

The Attlee Years, 1945-1951, Norman Thomas Democratic Socialism: a new appraisal or Roy Hattersley's Choose Freedom: The Future of Democratic Socialism. A variant of this set of definitions is Joseph Schumpeter's argument, set out in Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy (1941), that liberal democracies were evolving from "liberal capitalism" into democratic socialism, with the growth of workers' self-managementindustrial democracy and regulatory institutions.[15]

 

The Democratic Socialists of America defines democratic socialism as a movement to eliminate capitalism by evolving a "social order based on popular control of resources and production...".[16]

The term is sometimes used inaccurately and vaguely to refer to policies that are compatible with and exist within capitalism, as opposed to an ideology that aims to transcend or replace capitalism. Though this is not always the case. For example, Robert M. Page, a Reader in Democratic Socialism and Social Policy at the University of Birmingham, writes about "transformative democratic socialism" to refer to the politics of the Clement Attlee government (a strong welfare state, fiscal redistribution, some government ownership) and "revisionist democratic socialism," as developed by Anthony Crosland and Harold Wilson:

The most influential revisionist Labour thinker, Anthony Crosland..., contended that a more "benevolent" form of capitalism had emerged since the [Second World War] ... According to Crosland, it was now possible to achieve greater equality in society without the need for "fundamental" economic transformation. For Crosland, a more meaningful form of equality could be achieved if the growth dividend derived from effective management of the economy was invested in "pro-poor" public services rather than through fiscal redistribution.[17]

Some proponents of market socialism see it as an economic system compatible with the political ideology of democratic socialism.[18]

 

The term democratic socialism can be used even another way, to refer to a version of the Soviet model that was reformed in a democratic way. For example, Mikhail Gorbachev described perestroika as building a "new, humane and democratic socialism."[19] Consequently, some former Communist parties have rebranded themselves as democratic socialist, as with the Party of Democratic Socialism in Germany.

 

Justification of democratic socialism can be found in the works of social philosophers like Charles Taylor and Axel Honneth, among others. Honneth has put forward the view that political and economic ideologies have a social basis, that is, they originate from intersubjective communication between members of a society.[20]

 

Honneth criticises the liberal state because it assumes that principles of individual liberty and private property are ahistorical and abstract, when, in fact, they evolved from a specific social discourse on human activity. Contra liberal individualism, Honneth has emphasised the inter-subjective dependence between humans; that is, our well-being depends on recognising others and being recognised by them. Democratic socialism, with its emphasis on social collectivism, could be seen as a way of safeguarding this dependency.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

MY COMMENT:

 

Now I remember where I have seen this before...  I can't think of a country where this really worked out all that well for the "working people".

 

It also reminds me of the book/movies "Atlas Shrugged"....  It was all in the name of "fairness".

 

Just my opinion of course but I don't think this will work in the USA...

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