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Re: Cops Kill White Student With Multi-Purpose Tool

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Message 21 of 68

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

Why is it that even when there are surveillance tapes showing clearly that a cop killed someone unnecessarily, most from the Right here will never admit that it could/should have been handled in a way where there was no life lost?

 

Sadly and sickeningly amazing.


I have not seen anyone say it couldn't have been handled differently or better. All I have seen is "bad cop, bad cop" and "I can't make such a determination not having been there".

 

It truly is sad and sickening how some will take a tragedy such this and use it as a political weapon and the opportunity to say something about those of a different political persuasion are "whining".


If all you have seen is "bad cop bad cop" perhaps you should get reading glasses.

 

So, should this officer, judging by the video showing everything and taking into account that the kid had no firearm, only a multipurpose tool, have taken this kid's life? Tazers and other options should not be options, they should be used first. Shooting someone and especially killing them should be the last option used.


Agreed, shooting should be the last option. But, once again - there are two options. One is that with the information available the officer believed the guy was armed and a danger. The other is the officer just had an urge to kill someone.  Neither of what you provided were options.  Do you ever THINK about what you post?  Or is it just wanting to respond with something......anything?


How do you know neither was an option? Do you ever THINK......etc. etc.

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Re: Cops Kill White Student With Multi-Purpose Tool

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Message 22 of 68

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@gruffstuff wrote:

Cops Kill White Student With Multi-Purpose Tool

 

Why didn't the cops use non lethal force to subdue this student?

 

Even if they used guns, why didn't they shoot him in the foot or the leg?

 

Why is it always shoot to kill?


That is my question too,   Why is it always 'shoot to kill'?


Cops are not told to "shoot to kill".  Instead they are taught that when using a handgun which has nowhere near the accuracy of a rifle, to shoot aiming at the torso (the biggest target).  If a policeman fears for his/her life, they want the person disabled as quick as possible to prevent harm to themselves.  The shoot his arm or leg is only fantasy on TV and movies.


Cops are trained to "shoot to stop", which for some reasons, like in the case of Philando Castille, seemed to mean shooting him SEVEN TIMES!!!  Or FIVE TIMES at point blank range in the St. Louis case, including one, six inches away from the victims head.

 

 


Yes and a person doesn't necessarily stop and fall instantly when shot so the policeman will shoot until they stop or keep shooting while the adrenalin is pumping.  Well I'm glad to see you admit the cops mental state is part of the issue and not the actions of the soon to be dead victim.  Of course when one shoots seven shoots in under 30 seconds, there isn't much opportunity for the victim to surrender or fall.....

 

Some don't stop even when the police empty their weapon in them.  Don't over analyze it, you weren't there and neither was I.  Which is why I don't excuse it like you do.  You weren't there as you say, BUT, you give the cops the benefit of the doubt.....every single time.  Which is why we have riots and the Conservatives whine.....and the cycle continues.....


We have riots because the left likes to riot, vandalize, and cause general mayhem.  I don't expect the left to change its MO and fully expect more to come.


Yep, the right whines and the cycle continues .................


Whining is much more preferable than rioting.

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Re: Cops Kill White Student With Multi-Purpose Tool

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Message 23 of 68

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@gruffstuff wrote:

Cops Kill White Student With Multi-Purpose Tool

 

Why didn't the cops use non lethal force to subdue this student?

 

Even if they used guns, why didn't they shoot him in the foot or the leg?

 

Why is it always shoot to kill?


That is my question too,   Why is it always 'shoot to kill'?


Cops are not told to "shoot to kill".  Instead they are taught that when using a handgun which has nowhere near the accuracy of a rifle, to shoot aiming at the torso (the biggest target).  If a policeman fears for his/her life, they want the person disabled as quick as possible to prevent harm to themselves.  The shoot his arm or leg is only fantasy on TV and movies.


Cops are trained to "shoot to stop", which for some reasons, like in the case of Philando Castille, seemed to mean shooting him SEVEN TIMES!!!  Or FIVE TIMES at point blank range in the St. Louis case, including one, six inches away from the victims head.

 

 


Yes and a person doesn't necessarily stop and fall instantly when shot so the policeman will shoot until they stop or keep shooting while the adrenalin is pumping.  Some don't stop even when the police empty their weapon in them.  Don't over analyze it, you weren't there and neither was I.  If you or I were there, we might have done the same thing in fear for our lives?


You may have because you just said so, let others speak for themselves.  What about this kid with the multi-tool, do believe that shooting and killing him was the right thing to do? No dodge, yes or no is easy enough.


Yes (If the policeman was afraid he would be injured or killed) or no (if he really didn't feel threatened.  No dodge since I can't read his mind or YOURS!

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Re: Cops Kill White Student With Multi-Purpose Tool

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Message 24 of 68

@rk9152 wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

Why is it that even when there are surveillance tapes showing clearly that a cop killed someone unnecessarily, most from the Right here will never admit that it could/should have been handled in a way where there was no life lost?

 

Sadly and sickeningly amazing.


I have not seen anyone say it couldn't have been handled differently or better. All I have seen is "bad cop, bad cop" and "I can't make such a determination not having been there".

 

It truly is sad and sickening how some will take a tragedy such this and use it as a political weapon and the opportunity to say something about those of a different political persuasion are "whining".


If all you have seen is "bad cop bad cop" perhaps you should get reading glasses.

 

So, should this officer, judging by the video showing everything and taking into account that the kid had no firearm, only a multipurpose tool, have taken this kid's life? Tazers and other options should not be options, they should be used first. Shooting someone and especially killing them should be the last option used.


Agreed, shooting should be the last option. But, once again - there are two options. One is that with the information available the officer believed the guy was armed and a danger. The other is the officer just had an urge to kill someone.  Neither of what you provided were options.  Do you ever THINK about what you post?  Or is it just wanting to respond with something......anything?


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Re: Cops Kill White Student With Multi-Purpose Tool

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Message 25 of 68

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

Why is it that even when there are surveillance tapes showing clearly that a cop killed someone unnecessarily, most from the Right here will never admit that it could/should have been handled in a way where there was no life lost?

 

Sadly and sickeningly amazing.


I have not seen anyone say it couldn't have been handled differently or better. All I have seen is "bad cop, bad cop" and "I can't make such a determination not having been there".

 

It truly is sad and sickening how some will take a tragedy such this and use it as a political weapon and the opportunity to say something about those of a different political persuasion are "whining".


If all you have seen is "bad cop bad cop" perhaps you should get reading glasses.

 

So, should this officer, judging by the video showing everything and taking into account that the kid had no firearm, only a multipurpose tool, have taken this kid's life? Tazers and other options should not be options, they should be used first. Shooting someone and especially killing them should be the last option used.


Agreed, shooting should be the last option. But, once again - there are two options. One is that with the information available the officer believed the guy was armed and a danger. The other is the officer just had an urge to kill someone.

 

I'll have to stick with number one.

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Re: Cops Kill White Student With Multi-Purpose Tool

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Message 26 of 68

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

 Yes, there are non-lethal options that can be tried however even that doesn't always work.

 

Basically, I am in favor of trying all available options but if it comes down to a life must  be lost, I do not want it to be the police officer's.


 


This guy had no firearm, the odds of a policeman losing their life was slim to non-existent. All non-lethal options weren't tried, actually none. There was no reason to shoot and kill this kid.  In light of that, yes this is a bad (or simply incompetent) cop.


I believe there were reports of a knife - they can kill. I was not there, I did not experience the emotions or the vision of the officer at that time. I did not get the reports he did. So, I shall not draw conclusions.

 

You on the other hand, seem inclined to go the "bad cop, bad cop" route. Go for it. It will garner you kudoes from our resident cop hater.

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Re: Cops Kill White Student With Multi-Purpose Tool

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Message 27 of 68

@GailL1 wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@GailL1 wrote:

Centristin2010 wrote

cities are trying a new "card" that has a chip in it that alerts law enforcement of an autistic person in the near vicinity.  It doesn't ID the individual, but let's the police know someone with whatever condition is indicated, is near and anticipate there may be a unique situation occurring.  The law enforcement officers where a small receiver that picks up the signal and ID's the "condition".  It's $9.95 per month and is being used in several cities.....St Paul is one.

________________________________________________

 

If that is the VITALS app then I believe that it does identify the individual because the guardian or the person in charge of the person has to input the profile on the individual.   I'm not sure.....I'm trying to find out for sure....it might be.

 

This is the VITALS

http://www.ausm.org/resources/resource-directory-2/item/vvitals-vulnerable-individuals-technology-as...

 

Sure it can be used for just about anything that responders might need to know but somebody has to input the profile and some who are adults on their own, suffering from something might not do that.

 

Yeah?  <smile>  Why look for reasons not to do something positive?  It may not capture 100% of the "at-risk" population, but that isn't a good or valid reason not to use it.

 

I din't say that it wasn't valuable for those who opt to use it or their guardian.  And I didn't suggest you did.  I'm saying that the use is just limited.  So is doing nothing.  But maybe you would want other to have to have their profile added - like through legislation.  Seems some rights would be violated.  Sounds as if that's your Libertarian values coming through, which is fine.  It's good that some stick to their core values......really!.....no sarcasm intended.

 

But no, I'm not suggesting legislating the use of the product.....at least not yet.  I would want to see it's use opened up to many other conditions (not just autism if it is indeed limited) such as diabetes, and mental health issues.....it may have helped prevent the death of the individual in this video, as well as possibly the young woman in C-ville and others.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Should all people with mental health issues go on some sort of registry so that this info is available anytime there is a happening?  They should be already for gun purchases checks.  Don't think that would work. It's working now to a degree.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are millions of people who suffer mental illness - long term or sporadically - who have never had to be adjudicated - it is only the adjudicated ones that lose their right to buy a gun.  But they can still buy other weapons or things they can use as such.  Yes, it's a complex issue which means many areas need to be addressed.....like better police training/awareness.

 

Perhaps walking in their shoes for a period would give you more incite into all the crazy (crazy, meaning weird, out of the norm) things that people do and get themselves into trouble.  From domestic violence cases to child abuse, to people coming after them with weapons of all type - look at some of the sick stuff people do in the headlines DAILY.  Would you want to deal with this day in and day out?  No me, not for all the money in the world.  So better training and more awareness is what ?  Gonna make them think twice before using deadly force.  I just don't see training/awareness as a pre-requisite for all the sick, stupid and hurtful things they see and have to react to everyday.

 

After working 8 years in mental health facilities, both at a state hospital and private institutions, I have a rather good idea of the sick people on the streets.....sadly, with government cuts to mental health programs, many of those I saw in locked wards are now heavily medicated and living amongst us.  Better training and more awareness may mean de-escalating the situation, using a taser vs lead, calling for more experienced trained help similar to a hostage negotiator like situation or other alternative which I'm not bright enough to come up with.  I believe with all of our resources, financial and intellectual, killing a victim of mental illness is not in the best interests of a civilized society.  

 

More cops are needed; they need to be better trained; they need to engage in more Community policing and we need to improve our mental healthcare services......all will cost more denaro....Conservatives don't like it.  Their preference is, "shoot, just kill em."

_______________________________________________

 

More cops - perhaps if it was a more sought after career - I think for those who have thought about it, now might have changed their mind.  Maybe, enrollment in police training course here in Minnesota is at a high pace.  Depends on salary, working conditions, etc.  Is recruiting an issue in Hot `Lanta?

 

Atlanta covers a lot of jurisdictions - for the city itself, I think they just graduated a pretty big class.  Then within the city there are many universities and colleges and most of them have their own force -  Agreed

 

Better training - perhaps if the pay was better - The pay should be better, but I don't understand the correlation between pay and training.  Do you think cops are saying, I'll accept more training if you pay me more?  IMO, cops doing their part to weed out the bad ones would certainly reduce the risk for the good one's.  Additionally, weeding out the bad one's would mean fewer lawsuit settlements which would save money.....which could be used to increase pay.

 

If the pay isn't good then why even go into the profession especially with such a threat to ones life.  Why isn't the pay "good"?

 

Community policing - perhaps, kind of hard for a cop on a huge university campus to know all the students. <chuckle>  Community policing is about knowing more people, not everyone.  Someone knew this guy was a loose cannon.....they may not have told anyone.  I do find it worthy of a chuckle that you attempted to dismiss any suggestions, without much thought and didn't offer any yourself.  Are you a "Just gun them down" kind of citizen?

Yes someone did know - his parents.  I'm talking about roommates, friends, neighbors.....  Obviously his parents knew....   He tried suicide two-years ago per his mother.  Maybe he was off his meds.....obviously needed more care then he was receiving. 

You know, Centristin2010, none of this would have occurred if he had not made the 911 call alerting the police to himself. Sure.  Would it have been better had he slit his own throat or jumped off the roof of a building? The outcome would have been the same.  IMO, calling 9-1-1 was a cry for help.....not "come kill me".

 

Perhaps the ticket is to have smaller (whatever) - communities, schools, cities, - where people know people - not sure that will ever be again at least in most places.  That just means even MORE cops which you dismissed earlier.

 

Not trying to bust your chops, Gail....too much respect here, but too many Americans, especially on the Conservative/Libertarian side just shrug...."no big deal".  IMO, the greatest country in the world (or so we like to claim), is too impotent to handle these issues?  If so, shame on us.....the so-called, "Christian" nation.


I am not saying that it is not a big deal I do not see anyway of training a police officer for all the many different situation which may occur.  Responding to a call for "an armed man", sadly isn't a unique situation.  There are several video's posted on this forum with very similar situations, the one in Chicago where the cops were charged and one in St. Louis......all with the same outcomes as here.....man holding a knife, shot to death by the police.  Some are bad cops and they should be gotten ride of pronto we agree bad cops have to be dealt with, but I wouldn't consider these "bad cops"....I would call this "cops with limited options"......I believe we should could come up with more options.    but most of the others don't want to take a life if they can help it but they have to protect the public and themselves and sometimes that is a spur of the minute decision -  I agree.

 

I try not to put myself in the situation of it ever being a concern.  Would it be a "concern" if there was a history of mental illness in your family?  Perhaps others should do the same.  Gotta love them Libertarians...and maybe it just comes down to that, philosophical differences between a Libertarian and an Independent Centrist.

 

Thank you for an honest and respectful discussion.


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Re: Cops Kill White Student With Multi-Purpose Tool

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Message 28 of 68

@rk9152 wrote:

 


There are two options. One is that with the information available the officer believed the guy was armed and a danger. The other is the officer just had an urge to kill someone.

 

I'll go with option one until I see some proof otherwise.


The "proof "was in the video, are you blind?  You really must check into a new pair of reading glasses !


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
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Message 29 of 68

@rk9152 wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

Why is it that even when there are surveillance tapes showing clearly that a cop killed someone unnecessarily, most from the Right here will never admit that it could/should have been handled in a way where there was no life lost?

 

Sadly and sickeningly amazing.


I have not seen anyone say it couldn't have been handled differently or better. All I have seen is "bad cop, bad cop" and "I can't make such a determination not having been there".

 

It truly is sad and sickening how some will take a tragedy such this and use it as a political weapon and the opportunity to say something about those of a different political persuasion are "whining".


If all you have seen is "bad cop bad cop" perhaps you should get reading glasses.

 

So, should this officer, judging by the video showing everything and taking into account that the kid had no firearm, only a multipurpose tool, have taken this kid's life? Tazers and other options should not be options, they should be used first. Shooting someone and especially killing them should be the last option used.


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
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Re: Cops Kill White Student With Multi-Purpose Tool

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Message 30 of 68

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

 Yes, there are non-lethal options that can be tried however even that doesn't always work.

 

Basically, I am in favor of trying all available options but if it comes down to a life must  be lost, I do not want it to be the police officer's.


 


This guy had no firearm, the odds of a policeman losing their life was slim to non-existent. All non-lethal options weren't tried, actually none. There was no reason to shoot and kill this kid.  In light of that, yes this is a bad (or simply incompetent) cop.


There are two options. One is that with the information available the officer believed the guy was armed and a danger. The other is the officer just had an urge to kill someone.

 

I'll go with option one until I see some proof otherwise.

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