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Re: Capitalism Allows Corps. To Dump Annuity Pensions

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Message 1 of 14

@rk9152 wrote:

@mickstuder wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Olderscout66 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

You guys (generic) seem to think that free market capitalism is not the ideal model - do you have an alternative??


That would be well regulated Capitalism - you know, the kind that isn't allowed to posion our food, water and air, a Capitalism prevented from committing usuary and calling it "expanding credit", a Capitalism that cannot sell bogus securities like derivatives and mortgage backed securities based on nonperforming mortgages, and most of all a Capitalism where the proceeds are divided according to the recepient's contribution, not their position on the organization chart - you know, the kind we had from 1936 until 1970 when every generation went farther than the one before, the middle class was expanding and our infrastructure, including schools and scientific research, was the envy of the World.

 

But that WOULD go against the gibberish in Atlas Shrugged, so most Republicans would disagree, not because they're evil, just tragically misinformed about actual economics vs laffer curves and other totally discretided supply-side nonsense.


Our system does provide the checks you desire. If you think tweeking in that area is good, that's fine. But you, as always, seem more concerned about wealth redistribution than anything else. But what is your economic model if not capitalism? 

 

You seem to be obsessing with Atlas shrugged lately. I recall nothing in it about the sorts of things you are objecting to. Can you expand on what you mean about Atlas Shrugged.


CAPITALISM IS NOT THE ISSUE

 

CAPITALISM IS NOT THE CURRENT SYSTEM IN THE USA

 

CRONY CAPITALISM IS WHAT WE ARE OPERATING UNDER

 

BOB CRAFT - A BILLIONAIRE - GETS CAUGHT ENABLING SEX TRAFFICKING - THE FLORIDA JUSTICE SYSTEM - OFFERS HIM A WAY OUT

 

JEFFREY EPSTEIN - A BILLIONAIRE - GETS CAUGHT HAVING SEX WITH MULTIPLE UNDER AGE GIRLS - SOME AS YOUNG AS 13 & TRUMPS PICKS A GUY FOR LABOR SECRETARY WHO GAVE EPSTEIN A DEAL THAT OFFERS HIM A WAY OUT & HE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO REGISTER AS A SEX OFFENDER

 

THESE ARE NOT EXAMPLES OF CAPITALISM BUT CRONY CAPITALISM

 

THE SAME WAY - TRUMP PICKS SOMEONE TO BE ACTING ADMINISTRATOR OF DOD WHO IS PUSHING FOR THE PURCHASE OF MILITARY EQUIPMENT FROM THE SAME CORPORATION HE JUST LEFT AND TO THE DETRIMENT OF ANOTHER US MILITARY MANUFACTURER

 

THIS IS NOT CAPITALISM WHICH MOST OF US SUPPORT

 

THIS IS SOMETHING - EVIL - SINISTER - CORRUPT AND HAD THE END OF THE USA AS WE KNOW IT - WRITTEN ALL OVER IT

 

YOU CANNOT SUSTAIN A SYSTEM WHERE EVERY YEAR MORE AND MORE OF THE MAJOR WEALTH OF A NATION IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF FEWER AND FEWER PEOPLE

 

THIS IS NOT FINANCIAL ANALYSIS BY A SOCIALIST

 

THESE CONCLUSIONS ARE BASED ON THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF HISTORICAL TRUTHS

 

Once again - yes, the federal government does have a place in the picture. It is the job of the government to insure that the freedom of the free market is maintained.

 

Your obsession with sex has nothing to do with Capitalism.



You're Right - There isn't much that happens in the USA today that involves - Garden Variety - Capitalism

 

The Epstein & Kraft Sex Trafficking Issues are all about - Crony Capitalism - that's what Trump & the Mueller probe is also all about

 

Millions in Money Laundering & Tax Avoidance

 

 

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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Message 2 of 14

@mickstuder wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Olderscout66 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

You guys (generic) seem to think that free market capitalism is not the ideal model - do you have an alternative??


That would be well regulated Capitalism - you know, the kind that isn't allowed to posion our food, water and air, a Capitalism prevented from committing usuary and calling it "expanding credit", a Capitalism that cannot sell bogus securities like derivatives and mortgage backed securities based on nonperforming mortgages, and most of all a Capitalism where the proceeds are divided according to the recepient's contribution, not their position on the organization chart - you know, the kind we had from 1936 until 1970 when every generation went farther than the one before, the middle class was expanding and our infrastructure, including schools and scientific research, was the envy of the World.

 

But that WOULD go against the gibberish in Atlas Shrugged, so most Republicans would disagree, not because they're evil, just tragically misinformed about actual economics vs laffer curves and other totally discretided supply-side nonsense.


Our system does provide the checks you desire. If you think tweeking in that area is good, that's fine. But you, as always, seem more concerned about wealth redistribution than anything else. But what is your economic model if not capitalism? 

 

You seem to be obsessing with Atlas shrugged lately. I recall nothing in it about the sorts of things you are objecting to. Can you expand on what you mean about Atlas Shrugged.


CAPITALISM IS NOT THE ISSUE

 

CAPITALISM IS NOT THE CURRENT SYSTEM IN THE USA

 

CRONY CAPITALISM IS WHAT WE ARE OPERATING UNDER

 

BOB CRAFT - A BILLIONAIRE - GETS CAUGHT ENABLING SEX TRAFFICKING - THE FLORIDA JUSTICE SYSTEM - OFFERS HIM A WAY OUT

 

JEFFREY EPSTEIN - A BILLIONAIRE - GETS CAUGHT HAVING SEX WITH MULTIPLE UNDER AGE GIRLS - SOME AS YOUNG AS 13 & TRUMPS PICKS A GUY FOR LABOR SECRETARY WHO GAVE EPSTEIN A DEAL THAT OFFERS HIM A WAY OUT & HE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO REGISTER AS A SEX OFFENDER

 

THESE ARE NOT EXAMPLES OF CAPITALISM BUT CRONY CAPITALISM

 

THE SAME WAY - TRUMP PICKS SOMEONE TO BE ACTING ADMINISTRATOR OF DOD WHO IS PUSHING FOR THE PURCHASE OF MILITARY EQUIPMENT FROM THE SAME CORPORATION HE JUST LEFT AND TO THE DETRIMENT OF ANOTHER US MILITARY MANUFACTURER

 

THIS IS NOT CAPITALISM WHICH MOST OF US SUPPORT

 

THIS IS SOMETHING - EVIL - SINISTER - CORRUPT AND HAD THE END OF THE USA AS WE KNOW IT - WRITTEN ALL OVER IT

 

YOU CANNOT SUSTAIN A SYSTEM WHERE EVERY YEAR MORE AND MORE OF THE MAJOR WEALTH OF A NATION IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF FEWER AND FEWER PEOPLE

 

THIS IS NOT FINANCIAL ANALYSIS BY A SOCIALIST

 

THESE CONCLUSIONS ARE BASED ON THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF HISTORICAL TRUTHS

 

Once again - yes, the federal government does have a place in the picture. It is the job of the government to insure that the freedom of the free market is maintained.

 

Your obsession with sex has nothing to do with Capitalism.


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Re: Capitalism Allows Corps. To Dump Annuity Pensions

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Message 3 of 14

   Squakers seem to like to spin fancy tails, but if in fact they really believed in "free market" then why are they supporting and cheering on tariff wars with most of the global countries that are doing just fine, aka Russia, EU, etc.    Gees these folks seem to spin from one place to another and never notice that all their bs. about free market capitalism, even realtively small potatoes NAFTA re-do is simmering in the pot - not completed.  

 

     All of which has nothing to do with the newest news that employees are being lied to about dumping their pensions for up front cash.     My employers tried that and I just said NOPE!  ( the gambit they tried was an increased check today and for 10 years)   If I lived more than 10 years, then I was on my own.    That money continues to pay all my bills, well past a decade.  

PRO-LIFE is Affordable Healthcare for ALL .
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Message 4 of 14

@rk9152 wrote:

@Olderscout66 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

You guys (generic) seem to think that free market capitalism is not the ideal model - do you have an alternative??


That would be well regulated Capitalism - you know, the kind that isn't allowed to posion our food, water and air, a Capitalism prevented from committing usuary and calling it "expanding credit", a Capitalism that cannot sell bogus securities like derivatives and mortgage backed securities based on nonperforming mortgages, and most of all a Capitalism where the proceeds are divided according to the recepient's contribution, not their position on the organization chart - you know, the kind we had from 1936 until 1970 when every generation went farther than the one before, the middle class was expanding and our infrastructure, including schools and scientific research, was the envy of the World.

 

But that WOULD go against the gibberish in Atlas Shrugged, so most Republicans would disagree, not because they're evil, just tragically misinformed about actual economics vs laffer curves and other totally discretided supply-side nonsense.


Our system does provide the checks you desire. If you think tweeking in that area is good, that's fine. But you, as always, seem more concerned about wealth redistribution than anything else. But what is your economic model if not capitalism? 

 

You seem to be obsessing with Atlas shrugged lately. I recall nothing in it about the sorts of things you are objecting to. Can you expand on what you mean about Atlas Shrugged.


CAPITALISM IS NOT THE ISSUE

 

CAPITALISM IS NOT THE CURRENT SYSTEM IN THE USA

 

CRONY CAPITALISM IS WHAT WE ARE OPERATING UNDER

 

BOB CRAFT - A BILLIONAIRE - GETS CAUGHT ENABLING SEX TRAFFICKING - THE FLORIDA JUSTICE SYSTEM - OFFERS HIM A WAY OUT

 

JEFFREY EPSTEIN - A BILLIONAIRE - GETS CAUGHT HAVING SEX WITH MULTIPLE UNDER AGE GIRLS - SOME AS YOUNG AS 13 & TRUMPS PICKS A GUY FOR LABOR SECRETARY WHO GAVE EPSTEIN A DEAL THAT OFFERS HIM A WAY OUT & HE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO REGISTER AS A SEX OFFENDER

 

THESE ARE NOT EXAMPLES OF CAPITALISM BUT CRONY CAPITALISM

 

THE SAME WAY - TRUMP PICKS SOMEONE TO BE ACTING ADMINISTRATOR OF DOD WHO IS PUSHING FOR THE PURCHASE OF MILITARY EQUIPMENT FROM THE SAME CORPORATION HE JUST LEFT AND TO THE DETRIMENT OF ANOTHER US MILITARY MANUFACTURER

 

THIS IS NOT CAPITALISM WHICH MOST OF US SUPPORT

 

THIS IS SOMETHING - EVIL - SINISTER - CORRUPT AND HAD THE END OF THE USA AS WE KNOW IT - WRITTEN ALL OVER IT

 

YOU CANNOT SUSTAIN A SYSTEM WHERE EVERY YEAR MORE AND MORE OF THE MAJOR WEALTH OF A NATION IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF FEWER AND FEWER PEOPLE

 

THIS IS NOT FINANCIAL ANALYSIS BY A SOCIALIST

 

THESE CONCLUSIONS ARE BASED ON THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF HISTORICAL TRUTHS

 

 

 

 

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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Re: Capitalism Allows Corps. To Dump Annuity Pensions

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Message 5 of 14

@Olderscout66 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

You guys (generic) seem to think that free market capitalism is not the ideal model - do you have an alternative??


That would be well regulated Capitalism - you know, the kind that isn't allowed to posion our food, water and air, a Capitalism prevented from committing usuary and calling it "expanding credit", a Capitalism that cannot sell bogus securities like derivatives and mortgage backed securities based on nonperforming mortgages, and most of all a Capitalism where the proceeds are divided according to the recepient's contribution, not their position on the organization chart - you know, the kind we had from 1936 until 1970 when every generation went farther than the one before, the middle class was expanding and our infrastructure, including schools and scientific research, was the envy of the World.

 

But that WOULD go against the gibberish in Atlas Shrugged, so most Republicans would disagree, not because they're evil, just tragically misinformed about actual economics vs laffer curves and other totally discretided supply-side nonsense.


Our system does provide the checks you desire. If you think tweeking in that area is good, that's fine. But you, as always, seem more concerned about wealth redistribution than anything else. But what is your economic model if not capitalism? 

 

You seem to be obsessing with Atlas shrugged lately. I recall nothing in it about the sorts of things you are objecting to. Can you expand on what you mean about Atlas Shrugged.

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Message 6 of 14

Treasury Notice puts retirees' pensions at risk

 

Sometimes important changes in pension law are made through the regulatory process or even, more subtly, through guidance that agencies issue to address key issues. Often the guidance sounds technical, but it can make a world of difference, either positively or negatively, to the economic security of retirees.

 

One negative change was announced without fanfare by the Treasury Department recently when the agency declared that it was reversing its 2015 guidance that prohibited pension plans from offering retirees who already are receiving their pensions the option of a lump sum.

 

You may be asking, what’s so bad about offering lump sums? Well if you’re a retiree already in pay status receiving a guaranteed pension that you can’t outlive, then being offered a lump sum is a bit like Adam contemplating eating that apple in the Garden of Eden. You may be tempted by something that looks good – but if you give in to temptation you may come to regret it.

 

While a lump sum seems like a lot of money, it will short-change most retirees, according to Drexel law professor Norman Stein, who is also a senior advisor to the Pension Rights Center. Stein says that because of interest rate assumptions, loss of legal protections, and insurance of benefits, retirees will lose a significant part of the value of their pension by taking a lump sum. That loss to retirees is a windfall to companies, which is the primary reason companies want to offer lump sums.

 

Also, almost every retiree is taking a risk when they exchange a pension for a chunk of money says economist Alicia Munnell, who is the director of the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College. Munnell warns that “only those with serious illnesses or who believe they don’t have much time left should even consider it.” But then she notes that we can’t predict our own mortality and sick people may live longer then they think.

 

Often retirees think that if they exchange their pension for a huge chunk of money – sometimes as large as $300,000 or even $400,000 – they can do a better job investing it themselves in the stock market. But economists warn that rarely, if ever, can people replicate the security of a pension.

 

Also, be forewarned, participants who take lump sums often have to pay high fees to investment advisors and to mutual funds who take no responsibility if the market dips and their investments lose value. On that note, we’ve heard stories of when companies announce they’re doing buy-out offers – largely in “derisking” transactions where plans are taking liabilities off the books – financial advisors, who may not have the retirees’ best interests in mind, swarm like bumble bees to flowers to get access to that money. They’ll say they can manage your money better than the pension plan, but while retirees lose out, the financial advisors will be able to buy a new boat with the commissions they earn and the high fees they charge.

 

Also, keep this in mind: if you are the retiree and take a lump sum it’s not just you who can outlive your money. Think about your spouse. You will lose the automatic survivors benefits that come with a traditional pension plan. Women typically live longer than men so losing that annuity is going to put a spouse at dire risk of losing out.

 

So don’t be fooled by the blandly-numbered Treasury Notice “2019-18.” Reading the notice may put you to sleep, but the impact should keep you up at night. What it means is, “we’re undoing very good guidance that protects retirees in favor of companies saving money at their expense.”

 

The Pension Rights Center and allies are going to challenge this ill-advised reversal.

 

Source - http://www.pensionrights.org/blog/treasury-notice-puts-retirees-pensions-risk

 

 

 

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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Message 7 of 14

@GailL1 wrote:

@mickstuder 

 

Today a friend of mine and I were talking about how some people really get into how they spend their money -

 

When they buy a house,

  • they investigate lenders and any program they might qualify
  • they can figure out the best mortgage for themselves considering different interest rate, closing cost, points, etc.
  • they think about buying down their rate, how much down payment
  • how the area where they are thinking of buying compares in both pluses and minuses that will affect their bottom line now and possible into the future
  • they know what each of the closing cost represents and make their rationale choice of yes/no  if they are buying something to protect them (title insurance)
  • they know how their escrow (if they have one) is figured and keep track of it from year to year. 
  • If they have PMI, they keep track of the value of their home by monitoring other sales in their neighborhood or they know the time period when PMI can be terminated - getting rid of it ASAP 
  • They keep track of their principal by an amortization schedule and know the interest which is due even accounting for any extra principal they may pay, regularly or occassionally- never any surprises especially if their mortgage is transferred from one servicer to another.

 

Then you have others that just want to see the bottom line of "what do I have to pay per month" - that's it.

 

I point this out because there are differences between us in how we manage our money and our financial affairs.

 

A person before they retire is often given the choice of a lump-sum payout which they roll into an IRA and manage it themselves.  Others will take the annuity payment - but even then they have to decide if they want the "Surviving Spouse benefit" or not, if applicable to their marital status.

 

This subject rule change,  this change in a retiree lump sum payout CHOICE is only for those who are already retired and are already receiving their monthly annuity - with or without the surviving spouse benefit.  The ones that are offered this before retiring have always had this choice.

 

As always, there are differences between us in how we manage our money and our financial affairs.

 

I understand that some people aren't money managers - they may know this too.  They may see dollar signs and it overwelms them for control; whether or not they are prepared to do it.  Should they know themselves?

 

Perhaps they do not trust their employer to manage THEIR money because of some condition that has arisen with the employer (or, may I add, their Union who is often in charge of the pension plan in some instances).

 

Some people have also prepared for themselves outside of a pension - adding to their retirement bounty.  The annuity is only one part of the whole picture.

 

In the end . . . . . . it is ONLY a choice - THEIR choice - nobody is forcing them to go either way.

As FREE individuals shouldn't they all have choices, especially if it is THEIR money?

 

I think we do a lot of spinning of wheel trying to protect those who can't    ( fill in the blank )  - trying to protect them from themselves sometimes - seem education would go along way in helping people help themselves - in this instance, making the choice that is best for them.  Perhaps even securing the help of a Fiduciary Advisor.

 

When a general rule like the one that came into being in 2015, it not only protects those who might need protecting, it also restricts those who are perfectly capable of making the decision for themselves.

 

Perhaps we should give a test to determine their thinking on the matter -

"If You got all this money - what are you gonna do with it?"

Who should be the judge of the right or wrong answers?  The government????

 

 


THE WAY I READ THIS - THERE IS NO CHOICE - A RETIREE OR MORE IMPORTANTLY THE RETIREE AND THEIR SURVIVOR CAN NOW SIMPLY GET A LETTER THAT SAYS - HERE IS YOUR LUMP SUM NO MORE GUARANTEED MONTHLY LIFETIME PAYMENT

 

 

Well I really wish you & your friend would have included me in your conversation B4 you posted this - maybe if you spoke to someone like me who is actually NOW potentially in the line of fire over this monumental shift in US Pension Policy - you wouldn't be so cavalier in your approach

 

I've been collecting a monthly pension from a Hospital I worked for and I already went through this exercise - I already made my choice B4 I got my first Monthly Check years ago & I'm guessing like most other people who have thought long & hard about their decision - we made that decision already based on current policy

 

More importantly they like me most likely structured their entire Retirement Portfolio based on these kinds of decisions

 

Now - for No Good Reason - other than Trump is trying to save money for some - make money for others - all at the expense of Elderly Retirees who have No Say in The Process

 

My Elected Representatives Didn't Determine or Debate whether this was in the best interests of their Constituents

 

This decision was made by a Political Appointee

 

We are learning tonight what the life Altering repercussions are of allowing Trump to put Political Hacks in charge of DOD

 

What putting Political Hacks in charge of FAA

 

ETC

 

So pardon me if I'm personally offended by how easily you write off & rationalize the impact of this little rule change on my financial future

 

But of course the Welfare of the Poor the Elderly - the Non-investment Class would never be a concern of Trump or Trump Cult Members

 

 

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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Re: Capitalism Allows Corps. To Dump Annuity Pensions

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Message 8 of 14

So are we talking about people having a choice concerning their pensions, or corporations being able to just legally dump their obligations towards paying pensions. Wasn’t this what was happening during the recession in about 2009, when corporations declared bankruptcy and then paid a very small amount on the dollar, or nothing? Or has this been going on longer than that?

 

Country over party

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Message 9 of 14

@mickstuder 

 

Today a friend of mine and I were talking about how some people really get into how they spend their money -

 

When they buy a house,

  • they investigate lenders and any program they might qualify
  • they can figure out the best mortgage for themselves considering different interest rate, closing cost, points, etc.
  • they think about buying down their rate, how much down payment
  • how the area where they are thinking of buying compares in both pluses and minuses that will affect their bottom line now and possible into the future
  • they know what each of the closing cost represents and make their rationale choice of yes/no  if they are buying something to protect them (title insurance)
  • they know how their escrow (if they have one) is figured and keep track of it from year to year. 
  • If they have PMI, they keep track of the value of their home by monitoring other sales in their neighborhood or they know the time period when PMI can be terminated - getting rid of it ASAP 
  • They keep track of their principal by an amortization schedule and know the interest which is due even accounting for any extra principal they may pay, regularly or occassionally- never any surprises especially if their mortgage is transferred from one servicer to another.

 

Then you have others that just want to see the bottom line of "what do I have to pay per month" - that's it.

 

I point this out because there are differences between us in how we manage our money and our financial affairs.

 

A person before they retire is often given the choice of a lump-sum payout which they roll into an IRA and manage it themselves.  Others will take the annuity payment - but even then they have to decide if they want the "Surviving Spouse benefit" or not, if applicable to their marital status.

 

This subject rule change,  this change in a retiree lump sum payout CHOICE is only for those who are already retired and are already receiving their monthly annuity - with or without the surviving spouse benefit.  The ones that are offered this before retiring have always had this choice.

 

As always, there are differences between us in how we manage our money and our financial affairs.

 

I understand that some people aren't money managers - they may know this too.  They may see dollar signs and it overwelms them for control; whether or not they are prepared to do it.  Should they know themselves?

 

Perhaps they do not trust their employer to manage THEIR money because of some condition that has arisen with the employer (or, may I add, their Union who is often in charge of the pension plan in some instances).

 

Some people have also prepared for themselves outside of a pension - adding to their retirement bounty.  The annuity is only one part of the whole picture.

 

In the end . . . . . . it is ONLY a choice - THEIR choice - nobody is forcing them to go either way.

As FREE individuals shouldn't they all have choices, especially if it is THEIR money?

 

I think we do a lot of spinning of wheel trying to protect those who can't    ( fill in the blank )  - trying to protect them from themselves sometimes - seem education would go along way in helping people help themselves - in this instance, making the choice that is best for them.  Perhaps even securing the help of a Fiduciary Advisor.

 

When a general rule like the one that came into being in 2015, it not only protects those who might need protecting, it also restricts those who are perfectly capable of making the decision for themselves.

 

Perhaps we should give a test to determine their thinking on the matter -

"If You got all this money - what are you gonna do with it?"

Who should be the judge of the right or wrong answers?  The government????

 

 

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Message 10 of 14
My corp pension was converted to cash balance in the 90's. Sure glad now. My investments income far exceed the pension monthly payments I was gonna receive. In retrospect... I was opposed to "cash balance". You can always get an "annuity" later, bad choice, but still a choice.

Thank God for unanswered prayers.

"The nicest curve on a woman's body is her smile "
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