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Re: Big Bang Theory in the news

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Message 11 of 22

The words "I believe" imply conviction not based on fact.  The words "I know" imply, with certainty, that the person using it the phrase actually does have perfect knowledge AND perfect reason. That is doubtful even if forcefully asserted.  Both are obviously flawed assumptions and have no place in a rational discussion.

 

The first simply means fact, if it exists, is not of any concern to that person. I try very hard not to use  the phrase, "I believe".  The second is absurd on it's face.  The only response can be, "You say you know, but you only think you know".

 

I think that is accurate within the scope of my understanding.  See....nuance does count

 

 

 

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Re: Big Bang Theory in the news

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Message 12 of 22

I see this kind of "logic" on Discovery channel and other such channels all the time ----- this over-riding, impossible to resist desire to draw a certain conclusion.

So, if the moon was cheese, and unicorns were real, and it was Tuesday, a hurricane might have parted the red sea.  And then, a billion ice cream cones "could" spontaneously wind up in your refrigerator.       Proposing C is true, when you haven't really established A and B are true is .... magical thinking.

 

This has not been established, only theorized:

So if it's been established that the Universe could have spontaneously come into being without any outside influence - it is now considered possible that the consciousness called god - gaia etc etc  may well have come into existence at the same instant the universe came into existence.

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Re: Big Bang Theory in the news

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Message 13 of 22

I've always thought Pascal's Wager was a good bet for agnostics. Goes something like this:

If there is no God, than not believing (obviously) has no consequences.

But if there IS God, then believing has wonderful consequences.

 

Since belief that He wants us to love and take care of eachother is central to actual Christian belief, I can't see a downside.Go thru this life without being an AH, and you have good times forever.

 

Even better, since those who call themselves Christian but delight in finding groups to send to Hell (a very "un-loving" behavior) cannot possibly make the cut, you don't even have to worry about having to associate with such folks for all eternity because the belief they profess is a sham.

 

Or you could decide there was a immortal Creator, but he's named Schomo, smokes bad cigars, and was getting bored being the only one around so he invented a Universe Machine, turned it on, and enjoys watching us as an alternative to basic cabel - that's POSSIBLE as well. Not sure what such a belief would do for ya, but different strokes....

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Re: Big Bang Theory in the news

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Message 14 of 22

@alferdpacker wrote:

@NerdyMom wrote:

Stephen Hawking's book, The Grand Design, was an interesting look at how the universe could sponteously create itself without the need for a God. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/sep/02/stephen-hawking-big-bang-creator

 

Does that mean there is no God?  No.   But it shows a way that God is not necessary to explain how we all began.

 

As far as crazy theories, though, we need those.  We need creativity and imagination to even come up with hypotheses that can be tested.   That's all science is, right?    You need to ask a question first before you can test it.   


So if it's been established that the Universe could have spontaneously come into being without any outside influence - it is now considered possible that the consciousness called god - gaia etc etc  may well have come into existence at the same instant the universe came into existence.


yes, and no. what is the source..of the cause..of the event? if it can be explained scientifically, what caused that etc etc into infinity. 

 

I was in the sciences in college when the original COSMOS was on TV. I was in an introductory organic chem class ( hated carbon chains, and i hadnt had math beyond basic arithmetic when i took it) and passed the class based on quizzes we took by watching cosmos and participating in discussion. WHAT A PROFESSOR!!!. It may be time to revisit our ol pal Sagan, the updated cosmos was modern but Neil and the producers left out "something" about creation that Sagan didnt. I saw so many theories, the number of thoeries was head bending. 

 

so, yes, and no 🙂

Sagan also taught me a question that applied very well in my manufacturing and employee developent skills.. " What If..."

So it begins.
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Message 15 of 22

An interesting discussion well worth having.   Once a human has the arrogance to say, "I know" and means it to say, "I know with certainty", further discussion is pointless, isn't it?  Where do you go from there?  "Belief" becomes the topic.  "Belief" does not rely on rigorous proof and is non-rational.  Evidence that runs counter to 'belief' is automatically discounted.  "Fake News", donchasee? 

 

Honesty requires admiting imperfect knowledge, does it not?   So.......perhaps Diogenes may find what he sought in the agnostic and it may well be the only place it exists.  Just sayin'.    

 

 

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Message 16 of 22

@NerdyMom wrote:

Stephen Hawking's book, The Grand Design, was an interesting look at how the universe could sponteously create itself without the need for a God. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/sep/02/stephen-hawking-big-bang-creator

 

Does that mean there is no God?  No.   But it shows a way that God is not necessary to explain how we all began.

 

As far as crazy theories, though, we need those.  We need creativity and imagination to even come up with hypotheses that can be tested.   That's all science is, right?    You need to ask a question first before you can test it.   


So if it's been established that the Universe could have spontaneously come into being without any outside influence - it is now considered possible that the consciousness called god - gaia etc etc  may well have come into existence at the same instant the universe came into existence.

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Re: Big Bang Theory in the news

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Message 17 of 22

Stephen Hawking's book, The Grand Design, was an interesting look at how the universe could sponteously create itself without the need for a God. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/sep/02/stephen-hawking-big-bang-creator

 

Does that mean there is no God?  No.   But it shows a way that God is not necessary to explain how we all began.

 

As far as crazy theories, though, we need those.  We need creativity and imagination to even come up with hypotheses that can be tested.   That's all science is, right?    You need to ask a question first before you can test it.   

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Re: Big Bang Theory in the news

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Message 18 of 22

@Roxanna35 wrote:

@Olderscout66 wrote:

Couple thoughts - First off, Science cannot insert God into their explanations simply because He is "inexplicible".

 

Second, Science understands that something strange happened very shortly after the singularity showed up - "compression lines" showed up in the infant Universe. If they hadn't, we would not be having this conversation because the Universe would be a big bag of elemental particles, about 1 every couple dozen cubic meters of space because there's no reason for them to have "mashed" together to form atoms, molecules, stars or planets. They dubbed this "force" The Acoustic because it behaves like sound waves compressing air.

 

This is were Science found it necessary to come up with Cosmic Strings - incredibly dense "vibrations" that would've provided the compression needed for our Universe to evolve into what it is today.

 

Religion says it was simply God's voice declairing "let there be light" that rang the infant Universe like a bell, obviating the need for Cosmic Strings that Science thus far has to admit cannot be proven either.


Perhaps the Lord ordered all of those things that you have stated in the order that you have stated to happen.


Science tells/describes "what and how" - uses scientific measurements and mathematics - but does not deal with the supernaturality of "who" - because "who" cannot be measured or mathematically described.

 

Religion says it knows "who" - but has never been capable of using scientific measurements or mathematics to measure and describe "what and how"

 

Two descriptions of reality that esentially mutually exclude use of each other's language.

 

Couple that with the irrationality of human belief/insistence that only one can be the correct description...

 

The only possible conclusion is that nothing can be conclusively and irrefutably proved at this point in time.

 

If one is honest with oneself - one must admit that it is impossible to know for certain - one can only believe what one believes - and hope they are correct that what they believe is an accurate description of existence/reality... 

 

The current impasse exists because -

 

Science has questions the answer to which may not be possible to find.

Religion has answers that are not permitted to ever be questioned.

 

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Message 19 of 22

Good feedback.  Seems like it would be more "scientific" to consider all possible causes for a phenomenon.  You don't have to believe it, or even think it likely.   This is why, of those who don't have Faith in a Supreme Being, I see the agnostics as more honest.   Saying "I don't know" is more honest than  " it doesn't exist even though I can't prove that it doesn't."

 

Some of the people writing these science journals may need to look for a real job.  The demands of justifying grant money seems to be leading to discussions of Unicorns.

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Message 20 of 22

@Olderscout66 wrote:

Couple thoughts - First off, Science cannot insert God into their explanations simply because He is "inexplicible".

 

Second, Science understands that something strange happened very shortly after the singularity showed up - "compression lines" showed up in the infant Universe. If they hadn't, we would not be having this conversation because the Universe would be a big bag of elemental particles, about 1 every couple dozen cubic meters of space because there's no reason for them to have "mashed" together to form atoms, molecules, stars or planets. They dubbed this "force" The Acoustic because it behaves like sound waves compressing air.

 

This is were Science found it necessary to come up with Cosmic Strings - incredibly dense "vibrations" that would've provided the compression needed for our Universe to evolve into what it is today.

 

Religion says it was simply God's voice declairing "let there be light" that rang the infant Universe like a bell, obviating the need for Cosmic Strings that Science thus far has to admit cannot be proven either.


Perhaps the Lord ordered all of those things that you have stated in the order that you have stated to happen.

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