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Honored Social Butterfly

Another Example of Why There is Unrest in This Country

 

Just another day interacting with peaceful Americans...

 

And to MANY whites, this behavior is acceptable...


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
Honored Social Butterfly
Honored Social Butterfly

Yep.  Another example of why there is unrest in this country today.  Thanks!

 

Can a black cop be taught to be bigoted against his own race?

 

I'm a black ex-cop, and this is the real truth about race and policing 


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
Regular Social Butterfly

Glad they got fired.        I saw a whole of taser going on. Your tase a person and keep doing it and expect them to get out of the car faster than you want so you tase them again? Was I seeing it right? The boy too. Go ahead and tase me so I can't get out so you can tase me again.   Look totally excessive and out of control.     IMO 

Live For Today, No One is Guaranteed a TOMORROW !
Honored Social Butterfly

@Centristsin2010 

 

You have posted twice about this incident in Atlanta where 6-policemen have been charged with excessive force of various degrees - two fired; other 4 on administrative leave.  I see what you see in the video but I am also reading about the "who" - in this regards, the 6-officers and I am left with some bewilderment.

 

The protest going on are against racism, against excessive actions by 1st line law enforcers - I don't understand why those things cannot be identified before it gets to a boiling point - don't you think there has to be some sign of those characteristics beforehand?

 

In this instance:

Is it racism ?  A simple definition of racism is ( noun) prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Is it lack of proper training?

Something in the psychological makeup of the officers?

Is it that they are just feeling their power as police officers?

Caught up in the heat of the moment ?

 

I think there is probably a whole lot more to the story - either on the side of the victims or in the history of the officers involved - a video tells only part of the overall story as to the why.  And it is the WHY that has to be known before any corrective action to stop such incidents can take place. 

 

News Report - WSBTV - DA Charges 6-APD Officers 

For identification purposes:

The victims:

Pilgrim and Young - college students - no criminal records -

 

THE OFFICERS INVOLVED:

  • Ivory Streeter: Aggravated assault on Pilgrim (used taser); pointing or aiming gun on Young
  • Mark Gardner: Aggravated assault on Pilgrim (used taser)
  • Lonnie Hood: Aggravated assault on Young (used taser); aggravated assault and simple battery on Pilgrim (used taser)
  • Willie Sauls: Aggravated assault on Pilgrim (pointed taser); criminal damage to property (car)
  • Armond Jones: Aggravated battery of Young (forcefully thrown unto paved street); pointing or aiming a gun at Young
  • Roland Claud: Criminal damage to property (car)

The top 2-on the list were fired. 

 

The news link above also states this about the policemen:

Willie Sauls, Jr. has nearly 30 years in law enforcement, including time on the U.S. marshal’s fugitive task force. Just two months ago, he’d completed cultural awareness, use of force and de-escalation training.

 

Days prior to the incident, Officer Roland Claud had also completed the same training. He’s been with APD for 13 years and faces a charge for damaging the students’ cars.

 

In March and April, 21-year veteran Officer Lonnie Hood completed training in the same area. Last year, Taser recertification was completed. She’s charged for her use of the Taser on Young and aggravated assault on Pilgrim.

 

It had been about a year since Officer Armond Jones completed his training. He was the freshest officer in the bunch, going from cadet to officer in October 2018. He faces an aggravated battery charge for throwing Young on the ground and pointing his gun.

 

 

Those four are currently on administrative leave as of Tuesday evening.

 

But from our report Monday, we know Ivory Streeter and Mark Gardner, the two officers fired earlier in the week and charged Tuesday, were also veterans on the force, investigators in the fugitive unit and had recently gone through all that same de-escalation and use-of-force training.

 
 
 
 
Honored Social Butterfly


@GailL1 wrote:

@Centristsin2010 

 

You have posted twice about this incident in Atlanta where 6-policemen have been charged with excessive force of various degrees - two fired; other 4 on administrative leave.  I see what you see in the video but I am also reading about the "who" - in this regards, the 6-officers and I am left with some bewilderment.

 

The protest going on are against racism, against excessive actions by 1st line law enforcers - I don't understand why those things cannot be identified before it gets to a boiling point - don't you think there has to be some sign of those characteristics beforehand?

 

In this instance:

Is it racism ?  A simple definition of racism is ( noun) prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Is it lack of proper training?

Something in the psychological makeup of the officers?

Is it that they are just feeling their power as police officers?

Caught up in the heat of the moment ?

 

I think there is probably a whole lot more to the story - either on the side of the victims or in the history of the officers involved - a video tells only part of the overall story as to the why.  And it is the WHY that has to be known before any corrective action to stop such incidents can take place. 

 

News Report - WSBTV - DA Charges 6-APD Officers 

For identification purposes:

The victims:

Pilgrim and Young - college students - no criminal records -

 

THE OFFICERS INVOLVED:

  • Ivory Streeter: Aggravated assault on Pilgrim (used taser); pointing or aiming gun on Young
  • Mark Gardner: Aggravated assault on Pilgrim (used taser)
  • Lonnie Hood: Aggravated assault on Young (used taser); aggravated assault and simple battery on Pilgrim (used taser)
  • Willie Sauls: Aggravated assault on Pilgrim (pointed taser); criminal damage to property (car)
  • Armond Jones: Aggravated battery of Young (forcefully thrown unto paved street); pointing or aiming a gun at Young
  • Roland Claud: Criminal damage to property (car)

The top 2-on the list were fired. 

 

The news link above also states this about the policemen:

Willie Sauls, Jr. has nearly 30 years in law enforcement, including time on the U.S. marshal’s fugitive task force. Just two months ago, he’d completed cultural awareness, use of force and de-escalation training.

 

Days prior to the incident, Officer Roland Claud had also completed the same training. He’s been with APD for 13 years and faces a charge for damaging the students’ cars.

 

In March and April, 21-year veteran Officer Lonnie Hood completed training in the same area. Last year, Taser recertification was completed. She’s charged for her use of the Taser on Young and aggravated assault on Pilgrim.

 

It had been about a year since Officer Armond Jones completed his training. He was the freshest officer in the bunch, going from cadet to officer in October 2018. He faces an aggravated battery charge for throwing Young on the ground and pointing his gun.

 

 

Those four are currently on administrative leave as of Tuesday evening.

 

But from our report Monday, we know Ivory Streeter and Mark Gardner, the two officers fired earlier in the week and charged Tuesday, were also veterans on the force, investigators in the fugitive unit and had recently gone through all that same de-escalation and use-of-force training.

 

So tell us Gail, was it "lack of training"?  After all, you showed that they all just sent to training.  So what caused it Gail? What do you think it was? What was the "whole lot more to the story"? Why do you not think it is racially motivated?

 

No "bewilderment" here. IMO, officers that do this kind of thing should get far more than just fired and most likely hired again by another police force. They should go to jail with maximum sentences and never be allowed to be a member of a police force again, period. If the consequences aren't changed this stuff will just keep happening.

 

Systematic racism is within our police forces and it needs to be stopped. Dire consequences for these actions is the only thing that will stop it. Good cops have got to stop covering up for bad cops, period.


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
Honored Social Butterfly


@ChasKy53 wrote:


So tell us Gail, was it "lack of training"?  After all, you showed that they all just sent to training.  So what caused it Gail? What do you think it was? What was th "whole lot more to the story"? Why do you not think it is racially motivated?

 

No "bewilerment" here. IMO, officers that do this kind of thing should get far more than just fired, and most likely hired again by another police force. They should go to jail with maximum sentences and never be allowed to be a member of a police force again, period. If the consequences aren't changed this stuff will just keep happening.


Maybe not "lack of" but "type of " training.  Several of these officers, the (2) that were fired, specifically, were in the Fugitive Unit and were pulled for this duty because manpower and rotation was waning due to the happenings.  So they weren't what I would call "community" policemen.  Much of the training is unit specific.  So did that particular Fugitive training - meaning investigating and apprehending some of the more violent offenders - come out in this regards - I don't know, that is what I am asking also. 

 

I do know that if they had been apprehending a violent felon in their "Fugitive Unit" capacity - actions such as what happened could have rendered them a medal rather than an employment termination.

 

Some undercover officers have to be reprogrammed after their assignment is over - the depth of which would depend on their assignment and how long.

 

I think back to the old Atlanta Red Dog Squad - began in late 80's to stop crack cocaine in Atlanta - dismantled in 2011 after they broke into (no-knock) the home of elderly Katheryn Johnston who fired on them to protect herself and killed her in 2006 and tried to cover it up.  So it still took 5-years to shut down the Unit.  The Unit was held in high esteem for their drug bust up until then.  Of course, officers came into the unit and other left as time went by - they began to take more and more chances and perhaps began to feel somewhat invincible.

 

Like I said, I do not know the whole story in this current incident - I see what is in the video and what I read -  but I think it would be a good study of exactly what happened from beginning to end - why the car was there, why the officers went to the car, why the car did not stop, what was said and done before the escalation by all the parties.

 

I do not think that it was racism in his incident because all of the officers, except one, were of the same race as the college students.

 

I know nothing about the permanent records of these officers but years of service - 30 year, 21 years, 13 years, even 2 years with the APD - to name a few - don't you agree that there should be some track record of who these police were and have been for this long of service.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@GailL1 wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote: in blue text


So tell us Gail, was it "lack of training"?  After all, you showed that they all just sent to training.  So what caused it Gail? What do you think it was? What was th "whole lot more to the story"? Why do you not think it is racially motivated?

 

No "bewilderment" here. IMO, officers that do this kind of thing should get far more than just fired, and most likely hired again by another police force. They should go to jail with maximum sentences and never be allowed to be a member of a police force again, period. If the consequences aren't changed this stuff will just keep happening.


Maybe not "lack of" but "type of " training.  Gee, it's a shame their "training" doesn't remove racism and unacceptable unprovoked violent behavior) Several of these officers, the (2) that were fired, specifically, were in the Fugitive Unit and were pulled for this duty because manpower and rotation was waning due to the happenings. So racism is acceptable in the "Fugitive Unit"?  So they weren't what I would call "community" policemen. Police men and women are police men and women and should not be racists or commit racist actions or unprovoked violence on citizens.  Much of the training is unit specific. No "unit" should accept this behavior So did that particular Fugitive training - meaning investigating and apprehending some of the more violent offenders - come out in this regards - I don't know, that is what I am asking also. Why is it so hard to see that this was unacceptable? These two people posed no threat and should not have been conceived as such. Oh, but of corse, they were black and after curfew and blacks had been protesting (never mind that almost just as many whites were protesting)

 

I do know that if they had been apprehending a violent felon in their "Fugitive Unit" capacity - actions such as what happened could have rendered them a medal rather than an employment termination. They would have been awarded with a "medal" for mistaking two innocent college students as "fugitives" or "violent felons"?  Really?

 

Some undercover officers have to be reprogrammed after their assignment is over - the depth of which would depend on their assignment and how long. Undercover officers should have the same training in racial issues as any other officer. Again, you just can't "train" racism out of a person, they should not be allowed to be on any police force. Young persons showing no signs of aggression should not have been treated the way they were treated, period, regardless of their race.

 

I think back to the old Atlanta Red Dog Squad - began in late 80's to stop crack cocaine in Atlanta - dismantled in 2011 after they broke into (no-knock) the home of elderly Katheryn Johnston who fired on them to protect herself and killed her in 2006 and tried to cover it up.  So it still took 5-years to shut down the Unit.  The Unit was held in high esteem for their drug bust up until then.  Of course, officers came into the unit and other left as time went by - they began to take more and more chances and perhaps began to feel somewhat invincible. And this story justifies the actions of these officers in what way?

 

Like I said, I do not know the whole story in this current incident - I see what is in the video and what I read -  but I think it would be a good study of exactly what happened from beginning to end - why the car was there, why the officers went to the car, why the car did not stop, what was said and done before the escalation by all the parties. The car was there because they got stuck in traffic, yes that was revealed in the article about the incident. There was a curfew, they were late because of traffic. Would you have fear perhaps if you were black and officers dressed in riot gear came at you?Have you read much about his at all? It's hard to form opinions without informing yourself first. "All" of the parties didn't escalate, the police "escalated" it. 

 

I do not think that it was racism in his incident because all of the officers, except one, were of the same race as the college students.  So to harber racist attitudes against blacks you have to be white? Really?

 

I know nothing about the permanent records of these officers but years of service - 30 year, 21 years, 13 years, even 2 years with the APD - to name a few - don't you agree that there should be some track record of who these police were and have been for this long of service.   Well hopefully the police force will be forced to reveal "the track records" of these officers.  Can you give me examples of actions like this  against a young white couple under the same circumstances? It would be helpful to understand your position on this if you could.

 

Perhaps you should simply research this incident a bit more.

 

This is about police brutality also, not just racism. But IMO, a young white couple would have been treated far differently and that is unacceptable. I hope they sue the police force and are well compensated for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 


 


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
Honored Social Butterfly

Just passing on this new development - 

 

WSB-TV 06/03/2020 - Leaked email: APD chief blindsided by officer charges, agencies end support in A...

 

ATLANTA — Atlanta Police Chief Erika Shields sent an email to the department Tuesday night, indicating she was blindsided by criminal charges filed in the case of six officers.

 

. . . . Chief Shields also indicated the department had lost tactical support because of the newly filed charges.

 

Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard filed charges against the six officers Tuesday. In addition to the two fired officers, the remaining four are on administrative leave. They’re all expected to turn themselves in by Friday.

 

The email was sent by two sources to Channel 2 investigative reporter Nicole Carr, shortly after Shields sent it around 8 p.m. It was confirmed by department officials late Tuesday evening.

 

Shields said she spent four hours Sunday reviewing video of the incident and realized conflicting instructions, such as not allowing the students a chance to respond, created chaos and escalated a low-level encounter into a space where officers introduced violence. She called the cops “good people and good cops” who made “multiple mistakes in a heated moment.”

 

Yes, it sucks, and I am beyond discouraged- I’ve been there, and I know just how hard this job is. But if we are ever going to change the narrative around policing, we must be committed to being accountable always, regardless of the situation or the additional stress it may bring,” Shields wrote.

 

She went on and described how she didn’t know criminal charges would be filed.

 

“Our intention was to carry out an administrative investigation into the actions of the other officers on scene; criminal charges were never part of any discussion that I had with the Mayor or her administration. The criminal piece was brought to my attention yesterday through a fellow employee. Upon receiving the information, I called the DA and strongly expressed my concern, both to the appropriateness and the timing of any charges. Now that the charges have been announced, I’m very concerned with the space we find ourselves in, both tactically and emotionally. Multiple agencies that were assisting us in managing this incredibly volatile time have pulled out, effective immediately. They are not comfortable with their employees being leveraged politically by the potential of also facing criminal charges.”

 

“I am providing you with this level of detail because you need to know what is going on if there is any chance of us navigating our current state safely. The officers were fired because I felt that is what had to occur. This does not mean for a moment that I will sit quietly by and watch our employees get swept up in the tsunami of political jockeying during an election year. Stay strong and know that we will find better days ahead. -- Chief Shields”

 

The politics that she is referring to is concerning the DA (Howard) - who is running for reelection and has some problems with the voters in Atlanta - both black and white - in his job performance of putting away the bad guys.

 

Carr = WSBTV REporter          Howard = DA in ATL

 

Carr spoke with Howard on Wednesday and asked him about the police chief’s letter.

 

“I was sort of confused, and I was confused because the chief indicated for all the world to hear that the conduct on behalf of these officers was excessive. Excessive means that you’ve committed a crime,” Howard said.

 

“We had the videotape. You got the evidence. So what are you waiting for? Because this, Nicole, is what every citizen in this country realizes. If the situation had been reversed, if that had been a civilian, would we be sitting waiting for some action? No, and I believe the law ought to be applied equally. Equal to citizens and equal to police," Howard added.

 

The police union argues that they are still too many unknowns to go from firings to criminal charges in three days.

 

“I guess what I have to say is that we’ve been dealing with this for so long I don’t know who to believe anymore,” said Vince Champion with the International Brotherhood of Police Officers.

 

Lawyers for officers Gardner and Streeter say their actions were reasonable given the chaos and they have not gotten due process.

 

The mayor’s office sent this statement to Carr on Wednesday afternoon:

 

"The decision to prosecute or not prosecute is the District Attorney’s alone. The Mayor has the authority to fire or not fire, as you saw her take such action Sunday. The City continues to investigate the facts of the matter and take action as needed, and within our authority.

 

The Mayor believes there is a broader point to be made, in that we must create levels of trust between public safety officials and the communities they are sworn to protect."

 

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I am not sure how you could say that a young white couple would have been treated differently if the (whatever) things happened in the same way and the policemen acted in the same way.  That is being speculative especially since all we know is what is in the video and a little from the student's.  What events - students or police -  led up to this is still unclear.

 

How can this be racism when the very word means (noun) - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.  ??????   Only (1) of the (6) officers were white -

Here are the pics:  https://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/atlanta-police-officers-da-announcement-after-students-ar... 

 

I am not saying that this event was acceptable - all I am saying is details (the WHY) make the difference.  It could have very well been the over-action by these police but WHY especially with the service longevity with the  APD????  It is the knowing of the WHY that makes all the difference in trying to correct the problem about why they reacted in this way.

 

If your main job is to apprehend very violent felon, as in the Fugitive Squad - the priority lies in aggressive apprehension and the protection of human life (their life & others).  A completely different priority than their job on the evening in question when it was more about crowd control.

All I am saying is that perhaps it is rather difficult to switch from one job to the other dealing with a murderer on the run is a lot different than dealing with (2) college students.

 

Gail wrote:  I do know that if they had been apprehending a violent felon in their "Fugitive Unit" capacity - actions such as what happened could have rendered them a medal rather than an employment termination. 

Chasky53 wrote:  They would have been awarded with a "medal" for mistaking two innocent college students as "fugitives" or "violent felons"?  Really?

 

You keep describing the-leading-up-to events as if you know them when all we have thus far is the video of what happened - I have no idea as to what provoked the officers to act as they did - 

 

ChasKy53 wrote:  The car was there because they got stuck in traffic, yes that was revealed in the article about the incident. There was a curfew, they were late because of traffic. Would you have fear perhaps if you were black and officers dressed in riot gear came at you?Have you read much about his at all? It's hard to form opinions without informing yourself first. "All" of the parties didn't escalate, the police "escalated" it. 

I haven't read anything about traffic - I did read that that the car was not suppose to be there because it was the area where protesters were moving and traffic had been stopped.  The car was moving - were they asked to stop and kept moving?  Were the officers trying to stop the car thinking that it might be trying to run down protesters?

 

Yes, you are pointing out that sometimes panic sets in and people react - in that instance things get out of control because the different parties are interpreting the events from a different viewpoint.

 

As  to the track record of the policemen involved - I have read only this:

AJC - 06/01/2020 - Fired APD officer had previous excessive force complaints  

but please note that the AJC issued an update which is the beginning paragraph -

Editor's Note: This story has been corrected and updated to reflect that an excessive force complaint lodged against Officer Mark Gardner in 2015 was not upheld. An earlier version of the story was based on APD records that the department now says are inaccurate.

 

He has been on the force since 1997 and the other fired officer since 2003.

 

 

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@GailL1 wrote:

 

I am not sure how you could say that a young white couple would have been treated differently if the (whatever) things happened in the same way and the policemen acted in the same way.  Easy...it's called history....That is being speculative ....oh, like your knowing had the cops been in the field they were trained in, they would have received medals?  Speculative like that????  especially since all we know is what is in the video and a little from the student's.  What events - students or police -  led up to this is still unclear.  Unclear to the public, probably not to the cops or students.  Point is, the cops clearly used excessive force....yet we are numb to the fact Conservatives and Libertarians will defend the cops regardless.

 

How can this be racism when the very word means (noun) - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.  ??????  Ever see the movie "The Hate You Give"  It answers your question quite clearly.  Only (1) of the (6) officers were white -  So?  Black cops can be trained on white biases as well....


 


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
Honored Social Butterfly


@Centristsin2010 w


I am not saying that they didn't use excessive force, they did as the situation turned out - My question is WHY - what put these actions into play and did their training in the area of their normal duties influence the decision they made. 

Unclear to the public, probably not to the cops or students - probably ???

 

Perchance, If it had turned out that these young adults were doing something that could have caused harm to others in the area - yes, the ending would have been much different. 

 

If "Black cops can be trained on white biases as well...." then it is still not racism - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.   What's the new definition if it is not about someone of a different race?

 

Bias:  (noun) prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair. 

Bias:  (verb) cause to feel or show inclination or prejudice for or against someone or something.

IF that was the situation in this incident - it could have been a bias of something other than race -

Racism is the bottom line of what is being protested. 

 

The infraction evidently was enough to cost them their job - but criminal charges; I will reserve judgement until the whole story is reveled. 

I am not defending anything or anybody - every situation is different.  Yes some of the incidents that happen are definitely wrong and are based in racism. 

We do need to weed out the bad apples - hopefully before they do harm.  Definitely and as swiftly as possible if they do harm. 

Don't you agree that bad apples in any Police Dept would give some indication before 13, 21 or 30 years at the same Dept?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@GailL1 

I am not saying that they didn't use excessive force, they did as the situation turned out - My question is WHY - what put these actions into play and did their training in the area of their normal duties influence the decision they made. 

Unclear to the public, probably not to the cops or students - probably ???

 

 

Gail, have you ever thought that training or lack of it doesn't trump common sense? Over analyzing could lead to errors.

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I too thought it was "woman-splaining" as in "man-splaining" by a woman.  A LOT of excuses, as if any of it excused anything...


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
Honored Social Butterfly

I don’t care how anyone tries to rationalize police or military behavior, whether against protesters or minorities, and whether this happens on the national, state, or local level...

in America, this is illegal, repulsive, and indefensible!

And trump keeps throwing gas on these fires...he has to go!

Honored Social Butterfly

 

@@Gai  You have been in this message board for a long time. and we have discussed  many issues. from Health Care to immigration Social Security and so many others. Sometimes we have agreed and sometimes we have not. 
Many times  I have discussed here not only immigration issues but racism. and     And I have to admit, that nothing has changed on this aspect for many years. 
Recently there was a discussion before all of this, that touched the racial issue. and one of the posters, stated that this is a cultural issue. which I have to agree Culturally speaking, the US has never evolved in their racial relations since the first white man set foot on these shores.
After almost 400 years, This country still has reservations. and slavery has been abolished  for about 200 years, and still just like with the Native Americans,  the US has never been able to integrate into their society the different races that exist in this country.
I don't think that Americans are bad people,, it is simply that they have not been able to see or understand on how to integrate into this society other races. 
We have seen the creation of people that answer to either white, blacks, brown and yellow. and to make  it in my mind even worse, It has been decided culturally to hyphenate these individual to show that they are different.
I do not offer solutions that I know I cannot solve. but, I would advise that perhaps this culture should see other societies and see how they have done it.
It will be very difficult to implement, because is cultural, but with education and perhaps laws that refrain racist behaviour eventually it will happen.




 

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Honored Social Butterfly

I think some of the chaos in the country is a reflection of the chaos in the White House. This is the perfect storm for America. Never mind people have been cooped up in their homes for months, and the pandemic has been bungled from the get go by Trump and racial unrest and you get a country in chaos.
Honored Social Butterfly

@Tom5678 

I am sure you are right in your thinking - chaos breeds chaos -  but we have been rinse and repeating this matter for many years and under many administration.

 

The solution here is NOT just to get rid of this Administration nor even to get rid of all Republican or Conservatives. OR to discover a vaccine for the novel coronavirus.

 

The (whatever) solution here is a people to people issue - a community to community issue but 1st, all the problems have to come to light because it may not be just one.  Or is it just one, in your view?

 

Would more living area diversification help?

What would help in your opinion?

 

 

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