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Re: And then we have Portugal.

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@rk9152 wrote:

A hundred years ago they had fascists instead of Oligarchs. And they worked with the unions - that is the economic approach of fascism, marry the workers and the owners into a single entity with the government in charge. So, is it the fascist economic model you long for?

 

As you said, Salazar was a dictator - but a smart one, he brought the church and "land barons" (again, Mussolini's approach) on board as part of the Syndicates.

 

https://macauhub.com.mo/countries/portugal/

Although a developed country and a high income country, Portugal has the lowest GDP per capita in Western Europe and its population has one of the lowest incomes per head among member states of the European Union.

 

Economic disruption in the wake of the late-2000s financial crisis led the country to negotiate in 2011 with the IMF and the European Union, through the European Financial Stability Mechanism (EFSM) and the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF), a loan to help the country.

 

So, it would appear that they needed outside help to keep their economy together.

 

You have made your usual "Oligarch" claims but through it all we have been able to keep ourselves going without any outside forces. I prefer that.

 

And finally, taxes. I do not see anything about 48% paying zero, zip, nada. How do you like these rates?

 

Resident income tax rates for 2018

 
Taxable income (EUR*)Tax rate (%)Deductible amount (EUR)
OverNot over
07,09114.50
7,09110,70023.0602.74
10,70020,26128.51,191.24
20,26125,00035.02,508.20
25,00036,85637.03,008.20
36,85680,64045.05,956.68
80,640 48.08,375.88

What does income have to do with Portugal's successfully solving the drug problem that pathetic lying dishonest US conservatives and republicans have never come anywhere close to successfully finding a solution for?

Obviously -  as far as the drug problem is concerned - US conservatives and republicans have their heads planted where the sun never shines...

44>dolt45
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Re: And then we have Portugal.

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A hundred years ago they had fascists instead of Oligarchs. And they worked with the unions - that is the economic approach of fascism, marry the workers and the owners into a single entity with the government in charge. So, is it the fascist economic model you long for?

 

As you said, Salazar was a dictator - but a smart one, he brought the church and "land barons" (again, Mussolini's approach) on board as part of the Syndicates.

 

https://macauhub.com.mo/countries/portugal/

Although a developed country and a high income country, Portugal has the lowest GDP per capita in Western Europe and its population has one of the lowest incomes per head among member states of the European Union.

 

Economic disruption in the wake of the late-2000s financial crisis led the country to negotiate in 2011 with the IMF and the European Union, through the European Financial Stability Mechanism (EFSM) and the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF), a loan to help the country.

 

So, it would appear that they needed outside help to keep their economy together.

 

You have made your usual "Oligarch" claims but through it all we have been able to keep ourselves going without any outside forces. I prefer that.

 

And finally, taxes. I do not see anything about 48% paying zero, zip, nada. How do you like these rates?

 

Resident income tax rates for 2018

 
Taxable income (EUR*)Tax rate (%)Deductible amount (EUR)
OverNot over
07,09114.50
7,09110,70023.0602.74
10,70020,26128.51,191.24
20,26125,00035.02,508.20
25,00036,85637.03,008.20
36,85680,64045.05,956.68
80,640 48.08,375.88
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Re: And then we have Portugal.

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@rk9152 wrote:

@Olderscout66 wrote:

The contrast between Portugal and Venezuela is amazing, but WHY the different outcomes?

 

First off, I'd suggest Portugal did not suffer from a century of Corporate Oligarchy that placed near total control of their industrial base in the hands of a dozen families.

 

Since you are knowledgeable on the subject, could you describe the economic model of Portugal for the past century?


Glad to oblige. From 1900 to 1910, Portugal was a Monarchy, and functioned much like the other European monarchies. In 1910 the Monarchy was replaced with a Democratic Government, but in 1926 a military coup created a fascist dictatorship with a twist" Unlike Hitler, Portugal's ruler, Salazar, actually promoted strong worker Unions and a rising standard of living for all the people. Portugal remained neutral in WWII, but provided considerable assistance to Allied commandos and spies moving in and out of Nazi occupied Europe.

 

Salazar assembled a civilian elite of intellectuals and bureaucrats to steer the course of recovery. Budgetary surpluses became the hallmark of his regime, making possible large expenditures for social programs, rearmament, and infrastructure development. This progress, coupled with personal austerity and hard work, won Salazar the grudging collaboration of parties and interest groups that included monarchists, conservatives, republicans, fascists, pseudofascists, nationalists, the church, business leaders, land barons, and the military establishment.

 

Salazar's unique blend of dictatorship and "worker's rights" continued to move to country forward after he fell from power, and from 1984 to 1990, Portugal's GDP grew faster than any Nation in Europe (4.5% pa). In the early 1990's, a Wall Street invented financial "crisis" cause a brief contraction in the economy and prompted Republicans to declare Portugal's socialist style government was doomed. Like all such Republican predictions, this one proved totally false.

 

The biggest factor impedeing Portugal's recovery was not their devotion to social justice, but a huge surge in drug addiction brounght about by the same BigPharms that fueled addiction in America - the invention of synthetic Heroine (Oxycodone and Hydrocodone) which was massively overprescribed.

 

Portugal solved their drug problem by eliminating the profit from illegal drugs by decriminalizing use and possession while shifting resources to attacking suppliers and rehab for users.

 

Today, Portugal is thriving, with an average income of $46K and a strong social safetynet for its citizens.

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Re: And then we have Portugal.

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@rk9152 wrote:

@Olderscout66 wrote:

The contrast between Portugal and Venezuela is amazing, but WHY the different outcomes?

 

First off, I'd suggest Portugal did not suffer from a century of Corporate Oligarchy that placed near total control of their industrial base in the hands of a dozen families.

 

Since you are knowledgeable on the subject, could you describe the economic model of Portugal for the past century?


It was described - what is your problem?

44>dolt45
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Re: And then we have Portugal.

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@Olderscout66 wrote:

The contrast between Portugal and Venezuela is amazing, but WHY the different outcomes?

 

First off, I'd suggest Portugal did not suffer from a century of Corporate Oligarchy that placed near total control of their industrial base in the hands of a dozen families.

 

Since you are knowledgeable on the subject, could you describe the economic model of Portugal for the past century?

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Re: And then we have Portugal.

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@afisher wrote:

   RW has been screaming "socialism", well, since WWII as their fearmongering clarion call.   Find a gov't that has failed and they recognize it only if it has liberal or socialistic government....so allow me to show them how wrong they can be and all the "conventional wisdom" capitalistic leaders who were sending up warning flags.   

 

     PORTUGAL.  The voters rejected the inpower  RW austerity folks and brought in a socialistic leaning Mayor....and then  - https://kontrast.at/portugal-economy-right-wing/amp/


No, back then it was "Communism" - we had a thing called the Cold War going on.

 

And, you found an Austrian left wing blog that agrees with you. How 'bout that.

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Re: And then we have Portugal.

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Message 7 of 10

The contrast between Portugal and Venezuela is amazing, but WHY the different outcomes?

 

First off, I'd suggest Portugal did not suffer from a century of Corporate Oligarchy that placed near total control of their industrial base in the hands of a dozen families. When these families, who had controlled the oil industry for generations, realized Chavez was serious about sharing the Nation's income from oil, they began a highly successful campaign to sabotage the economy.

 

The Oligarchs created fake shortages by withholding food from the markets, and when Government subsidies to the poor to buy food expanded, they released the stored goods, creating run away inflation as all those subsidy bolivars (Ven. dollars) drove up the prices, yielding huge profits for the Oligarchs and wasting huge amounts of government resources.

 

When the current Government tried to counter the Oligarchs with price controls, the Oligarchs turned to smuggling to bring in cheaper goods to replace the production from the "socialized" businesses the Government had created, but never managed, causing hyper inflation not seen since 1930's Europe.

 

Portugal on the other hand, simply used the revenue from higher taxes on the rich to improve their infrastructure AND ended their drug problem by decriminalizing possession and use of virtually all the "illegal drugs". This drastically reduced the government's expenses and the money was redirected towards building the infrastructure.

 

The projects to improve the infrastructure provided a huge uptick in employment. The workers spent their pay, driving up demand and encouraging private business to expand production further reducing unemployment. The improved infrastructure reduced the cost of producing and delivering goods to market, which increased profits, which the tax code (and higher minimum wage) encouraged business to share with workers and the workers spent their higher income, causing the cycle to repeat at a higher level.

 

Venezuela proves Corporate Oligarchs can destroy an economy while enriching themeslves.

 

Portugal proves a responsible Government and fairer taxes can restore an economy while enriching all citizens.

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Re: And then we have Portugal.

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But, but , but ................. this can't be true ................ Venezuela is socialist and that's how socialism is ............... ask any trump supporting conservative.


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
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Re: And then we have Portugal.

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@afisher wrote:

   RW has been screaming "socialism", well, since WWII as their fearmongering clarion call.   Find a gov't that has failed and they recognize it only if it has liberal or socialistic government....so allow me to show them how wrong they can be and all the "conventional wisdom" capitalistic leaders who were sending up warning flags.   

 

     PORTUGAL.  The voters rejected the inpower  RW austerity folks and brought in a socialistic leaning Mayor....and then  - https://kontrast.at/portugal-economy-right-wing/amp/


AND - Portugal has been successful in doing what every republican since Nixon has abjectly failed to do - find a functional and not increasingly expensive way to deal with the drug problem that - no - none - not any - conservative government has managed to successfully deal with drug use- unless the universal forced rehabilitation camps of drug users in China are considered - but there's a problem -  drug use in China continues to increase...

44>dolt45
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And then we have Portugal.

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   RW has been screaming "socialism", well, since WWII as their fearmongering clarion call.   Find a gov't that has failed and they recognize it only if it has liberal or socialistic government....so allow me to show them how wrong they can be and all the "conventional wisdom" capitalistic leaders who were sending up warning flags.   

 

     PORTUGAL.  The voters rejected the inpower  RW austerity folks and brought in a socialistic leaning Mayor....and then  - https://kontrast.at/portugal-economy-right-wing/amp/

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