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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 71 of 137

"when government stepsw in" that is the premise that you use in order to excuse the ravages that todays corporations do to our society.
There is not need for the government to step in, when a corporation utiize a fair policy fot its workers there is not need for governemt to step in.

Look at Well Fargo. and what has happened in that company. We all know that it behaved badly, actually very badly. so there are insitutitions that actually were forced to come in and deal with the bad behaviour of Wells Fargo.
It was not a given that governement was going to inervene, there was a reason in which they did.
There needs to be a balance in all corporation between workers and executivesit doesn't necessary include co-ops but it does  have to do with the behaviour of corporations and what unfettered capitalism has created.
We have a problem in this country because of this. not to recognize that there is a problem and simply go out there and say that those people are Socialists or Marxists and try to deny the faults of what is happening is quite childish.
Again, try to become more objective in your opinons. and less subjective and partisan.

 

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 72 of 137

@sp362 wrote:


When industries refuse to police themselves, then the government is forced to step in and do it for them.  A perfect example is the recent Untied Airlines fiasco.  Either United will take steps to never do that again (it is as simple as increasing their incentive to be "bumped") or the government will do something to force them to do it.  The choice is theirs, so either control it yourself, or wait for the government to tell you what you have to do.

 

"Step in" in what way. We do have OSHA but that is not the topic. The topic is the advisability or lack there of of workers' owned and operated businesses and how to bring it about (if you are in favor of that). I do not see UAL in that subject.

 

So, your thinking on the topic?


 

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 73 of 137

@Snoopy48 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Snoopy48 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Roxanna35 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

 


Gee, any company that succeeds on it's own without government intervention is fine with me. As to anything different, I think that is great. As an example, we both agree that Mondragon was a great experiment that worked. It, however, was not government action - the only thing I disagree with.  And  who in this post has called for government intervention? I am afraid that you may have misunderstood the posters. and yes the Mondragon example has proven that such an organization can flourish even with globalization.

 

This topic comes up due to the call for some posters for the government to intervene and change the current situation - you know, the hatred for the 1%ers, Plutocrats, Oligarchs, Uberrich, etc.  Frankly I don't care about the 1% or the Plutocrats , Oligarchs,Uberrich,  those are simply labels.
We are suppose to be discussing  The Widget Corp  and how other styles of corporations could be successful also. so, again, don't bring issues that I have not seen anyone even mentioning.


 


First point, if the point is that employee co-ops without government intervention are a good thing - we are in agreement. 

 

Your second point, again you and I are in agreement. But there may be other points of view on these boards desiring government intervention to bring about such co-ops or to create them out of existing entities via salary controls.


And there may be other points of view on these boards that the earth is flat or that Martians are living freely among us but I will wait to see them out themselves rather than making claims about them that are probably not true.


If you want to talk about Martians and/or flat earth, cool. But neither is the topic here. Why are you trying to confuse things??


My comment about Martians and flat earthers is just as pertinent as your claims about some wanting the government to create coops - neither are factual. But, of course, you enjoy making up your own facts so continue.


I have no desire for Fascism (the government establishing or controlling corporation). I am not making up facts, I am asking questions - for those who would like to see worker's owned and operated businesses, how do we get there with the exception of your very good idea about the workers banding together to buy out the owners?

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 74 of 137

@Roxanna35 wrote:

To claim that the government is "the disruptor"  or "the meddler"  in any corporation is rather silly.

The poster keeps on bringing up "the government"  as if the governent really had to do with how a corporation is formed or its function. We have spoken about co-ops and those types of corporations  don't have the goverment telling what to do. in the same manner that a regular corporation doesn't have the government telling them what to do. 
Each of those different styles of corporation function according to their own philosophy and policies. 
So, we leave "the government"  alone for a moment and let;s discuss the different styles of corporations. Which of those two types of corporations can provide the most benefits to its workers?

When management and workers work together we have seen that those types of corporation work a lot better than the ones that don't
But the idea that a corporation has to have a structure in which  executives and the CEO are the ones that have all the benefits only happens when we fall into an unfettered capitalistic type of society.
And it is easy to see what it creates. An unbalance between workers and its executives.
Again, this post has its beginning on the thread that stated that Progressivs and Marxists  were alike. and of course now we have jumped into the Widget Corporation as an example as to why a "workers paradise"  would never be successful.  and of course all the convulution of the interjection of goverment into all of this discussion.


Actually, "the poster" is attempting to stick to the topic of workers' owned and operated business and is soliciting thinking on how it comes about - with or without government intervention.

 

If anyone wants to discuss the relationship between the Progressive Movement and the thinking of Karl Marx, there is another topic for that.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 75 of 137

There is not a single realistic element in the basic premis concerning how companies get started and continue - it's nothing but a collection of smoke and mirrors designed to make people think that somehow having lots of money makes you very special and not having enough to live on makes you dirt.

 

If you have a great idea for a new improved product, you can get financing from venture capitalists who will take a share of the company (stock) in exchange for the money you need to build the factory hire the workers and market your product for the first several years after which the profits from the business will pay all the bills including the one owed to you as a stockholder.

 

Funny thing - those venture capitalists today concentrate on buying controlling interests in existing, profitable, companies, then gutting the company by selling off assets and demanding wage reductions from the workers and finally declaring bankruptcy after they pay themselves huge compensation packages for "saving the company". Hostess Foods is a great example.

 

None of this has a thing to do with income taxes.

 

When McDonald's was founded in 1955, the TMR was 91% and they and Mr Kroc did just fine.

 

When Microsoft was founded in 1975, the TMR was 70%, and still Bill Gates went on to considerable success.

 

Besides, the issue is really what the company does with the money (profits) it earns. For 40 years, 1936 to 1976, virtually all (96%) of the profits from productivity gains went back to the workers who became more productive.

 

Then the tax rates dropped and the ones providing "organization" (management) for the enterprise began giving themselves all the profits, and workers wages stagnated.

 

The reason for the shift is totally obvious - the high TMR for those 40 years would've taken almost every dime ofevery additional dollar the organizers gave themselves as higher pay, so since they hated workers, but hated Government more, they gave the money to the workers.

 

Then Reagans taxscam allowed the organizers to keep all the profit they gave themselves, so that's what they did. There is NO other rational explanation for why a Corporation that paid it's CEO 10 times what it paid its workers in 1965 now needs to pay the CEO 500 times what it pays its workers, with commensorate increases for ALL of management.

 

The reason the recovery form the jrbush Depression all went to Wall Street is that all the additional profits the companies made went to the top management who bought stock, NOT to the workers who WOULD have bought goods and services and driven the entire economy forward, not just the financial sector.

 

If you want a society that produces every increasing profits in the financial sector while closing actual factories and retail outlets, then you're definatily a GOPer bgecause that is what Republican financial policy has done for the last 30 years.

 

 

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 76 of 137

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@jimc91 wrote:

Good one @rk9152, your business model has exposed this board... not many executives here, ya think?

 

Good job!

Hardly .... You need not be an "executive" to realize that a business model based on an unlikely assumption actually "exposes" an amateur as its creator!


 It is hard to determine what that means beyond a slam at jim but,

No slam at jim .... rather a fact regarding a business model based on an unlikely assumption ....as was clearly stated and NOT as you convoluted.

 

bottom line - do you like the end result of the Acme Widget Corp. as proposed? If so, how do you see it coming about?

No .... "bottom line" is that your made up widget business model falls apart if your assumption is wrong.


 Got it - you'd rather not engage in discussion about workers' owned businesses.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 77 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

The issue is the average CEO whose pay is 335 times that of their workers.  They do deserve more, but 335 times is ridiculous.  The top of society are getting ahead at the determent of the average worker and, in the process, destroying the middle class.  That is the problem that needs to be solved.


No, that is your issue. There are others who see such a corporate environment as ideal.

 

As to your issue - fine, how do you fix it?? Shall we have all wages (and prices?) government regulated?


Well, in Germany the CEOs make about 145 times as much and in Japan it is about 70 times as much.  So, to maximize profits, maybe all of these Publicly held companies should go overseas?  I don't how you can consider it ideal, just take a look at what has happened and what is happening to the middle class.  In 1965 the CEO to worker pay ratio was about 20 to 1. 


Fine - I understand where you want us to be, how do we get there?


A carrot and stick method.  Personally, I would use the tax code.  You need to determine what a fair rate of compensation compared to average employees should be.  Companies that exceed this would be penalized by not being allowed to deduct excess CEO wages as an expense.  Companies that are below the rate, could be offered extra tax incentives.  Or, we can just stick with what we are doing where a front line worker working for one of the richest families in America has to receive food stamps just to survive.

 

Before I will respond to another question, you have to explain what you want to do, or why the present situation is ideal.


"determine a fair compensation" - who gets to make that determination, the government?? And then the government uses it's power to bring about it's view of how the company should operate. Sounds like Fascism to me. How about you??

 

I make no claim as to the current situation being ideal. What I want to do is support free enterprise capitalism with the government involved only in maintaining the "free" part.

 

Does that provide you the answers you require to allow you to continue in the discussion?


In order to make free enterprise capitalism work for all, the Government needs to maintain a level playing field.  In this case, the system is slanted towards top Executives at the expense of their average worker.  N companies can choose to fix it themselves, or the government can step in and fix it for them.

 

Do you believe companies are always doing the right thing and have their employees best interests at heart?  Do you think that companies are ignoring long term stratigies to maximize short term profits and executive bonuses?


Now we have arrived at the nub of things. When  the government "steps in" with regards to wage disparity, what economic model do they follow - Fascism? How far in would you like to see the government step?


When industries refuse to police themselves, then the government is forced to step in and do it for them.  A perfect example is the recent Untied Airlines fiasco.  Either United will take steps to never do that again (it is as simple as increasing their incentive to be "bumped") or the government will do something to force them to do it.  The choice is theirs, so either control it yourself, or wait for the government to tell you what you have to do.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 78 of 137

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

As I was saying…...there are those who see the ideal  industrial situation as composed of “workers’ co-ops” - no “bosses”, no Execs, no shareholders. In other words, no one gaining benefit from the work of the workers except the workers.

 

Let’s see how that would work. Let’s consider the “All American Widget Corp.”. It is a successful niche business provided a constant stream of products wanted by the consumer. It has 200 employees who are well paid but also has those other folks so the workers do not share the total profits, others take some. To have established the “workers’ paradise” the business would have had to start differently than it did with it's founder and investors. Back then, those 200 hundred workers would have had to get together and see the market for widgets and decide to form their co-op. Then they would have needed a factory. So, they would have had to find the needed group of about 75 construction workers of varying skills all banded together with no management. The builders would have to find non-corporate material providers and, for delivery, non-corporate truckers driving non-corporate trucks. Then, of course, the necessary machinery and raw material becomes an issue.

 

Well, two and a half years later, they are up and running and shipping their product off to independent (non-corporate) retailers. And all is well in the workers paradise.


Ya gotta wonder though, during those two and a half years how did they eat and put shoes on their children. And where did they get the money to pay for the factory construction, equipment and supplies?


No ... "Ya gotta wonder" if your first assumption was not true:

" It has 200 employees who are well paid  ...." 

 

Your nice story falls all apart if the 200 employees were NOT well paid rk ..... and especially if those employees were not well paid because the business's founder and investors decided to keep most all of the revenue created by the business.

 All would not be "well" nor any "paradise for the workers".

 

And therein lies the fallacy of your argument .... it's all based on an enormously risky first assumption!


How do you know what the employees were paid??

YOU quantified it as "well paid" .... YOUR determination of pay and a rather optimistic assumption. And if your assumption is wrong, then your argument is a fallacy.

I created an example for discussion purposes YOU claimed to know the pay scale.

 

 

The point has to do with the establishment of the co-op. Any thoughts on that and how they live during that wind-up period?

No, it was your widget story that I addressed ..... and it was all based on well paid employees ..... an unlikely assumption.

No, you are totally dodging the co-op issue. Do you or do you not support co-ops? If yes, how do we get there?


 


 

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 79 of 137

@MIseker wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Richva wrote:

What idiot would want a business structure like that? No Progressive ever would, I can assure you. 


I would not consider calling a fellow poster an "idiot". So, I'll just sit back and await self-declarations.

 

I believe that some would like a "boss"- less, CEO-less and stockholder-less business environment. We'll have to wait for them to step up to the plate - or we can drop the whole silly idea and stick with free market capitalism.


so its either your way or your nightmare scenario? sorry not playing.


Do you not have a solution that you could offer? Or are you concerned that your solution might point in a direction you'd rather not admit to.

 

It is really not all that complex a question although the answer is very complex. How do you get to that workers' owned and operated business? Snoopy offered a possibility - the workers getting together and buying it. That does not specifically address Acme as a start up company but it does bring about the desired end result and is a very good answer.

 

Now, it's your turn - how do we get from here to there? So far you have offered air castles, commies, lol, and something about your fellow posters not understanding manufacturing (with no specifics). Surely you have more than that to offer.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 80 of 137

@jimc91 wrote:

@MIseker wrote:

@Roxanna35 wrote:

@jimc91 wrote:

Good one @rk9152, your business model has exposed this board... not many executives here, ya think?

 

Good job!

 

 


Expose who, Rk? wow, don't tell me that this is your first encounter with the Widget corporation. is it?

I have known about the Widget corporation since the 90's this is really old stuff.  Wait, I can probably start googling and find hundreds of examples that blow the Widget corporation out of the water. 
He really need to become more modern and provide examples that are more actual with the present corporations.


it exposes an active imagination that sees commies behind every tree. lol. for all the ballyhoo about the marxists and collectivists here, you wont see an example of a post. unless of course they use a nom de plume and do it themselves.

 


Too funny!!

 

That would be the democrats seeing the Russians controlling the elections in America.

 

 


It is funny. When some run out a logical arguments to make their point, they throw out the classics - "Fox or talk radio" or "sexist, racist, homophobe" or "Fascist, Nazi" or (as in this case) "don't call me a commie" (often associated with a reference to Joe McCarthy).

 

I feel guilty saying "funny". How about we switch it to "sad"?

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