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Valued Social Butterfly
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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 51 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

As I was saying…...there are those who see the ideal  industrial situation as composed of “workers’ co-ops” - no “bosses”, no Execs, no shareholders. In other words, no one gaining benefit from the work of the workers except the workers.

 

Let’s see how that would work. Let’s consider the “All American Widget Corp.”. It is a successful niche business provided a constant stream of products wanted by the consumer. It has 200 employees who are well paid but also has those other folks so the workers do not share the total profits, others take some. To have established the “workers’ paradise” the business would have had to start differently than it did with it's founder and investors. Back then, those 200 hundred workers would have had to get together and see the market for widgets and decide to form their co-op. Then they would have needed a factory. So, they would have had to find the needed group of about 75 construction workers of varying skills all banded together with no management. The builders would have to find non-corporate material providers and, for delivery, non-corporate truckers driving non-corporate trucks. Then, of course, the necessary machinery and raw material becomes an issue.

 

Well, two and a half years later, they are up and running and shipping their product off to independent (non-corporate) retailers. And all is well in the workers paradise.


Ya gotta wonder though, during those two and a half years how did they eat and put shoes on their children. And where did they get the money to pay for the factory construction, equipment and supplies?


No ... "Ya gotta wonder" if your first assumption was not true:

" It has 200 employees who are well paid  ...." 

 

Your nice story falls all apart if the 200 employees were NOT well paid rk ..... and especially if those employees were not well paid because the business's founder and investors decided to keep most all of the revenue created by the business.

 All would not be "well" nor any "paradise for the workers".

 

And therein lies the fallacy of your argument .... it's all based on an enormously risky first assumption!


How do you know what the employees were paid??

YOU quantified it as "well paid" .... YOUR determination of pay and a rather optimistic assumption. And if your assumption is wrong, then your argument is a fallacy.

I created an example for discussion purposes YOU claimed to know the pay scale.

No, YOU created the pay scale with your assumption that all employees were "well paid" .... YOUR words, NOT MINE!

 

 

The point has to do with the establishment of the co-op. Any thoughts on that and how they live during that wind-up period?

No, it was your widget story that I addressed ..... and it was all based on well paid employees ..... an unlikely assumption.

No, you are totally dodging the co-op issue. Do you or do you not support co-ops? If yes, how do we get there?

No, you interjected "co-op" into my comments, a fact "you are totally dodging" ...... and a continuation of the insertion of your words into my comments.


 


 


 

DUMP TRUMP AND DITCH MITCH TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!
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Treasured Social Butterfly
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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 52 of 137
Go to your county Farmers co op. you county also probably has an ag extension of your state university system.
So it begins.
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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 53 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

The issue is the average CEO whose pay is 335 times that of their workers.  They do deserve more, but 335 times is ridiculous.  The top of society are getting ahead at the determent of the average worker and, in the process, destroying the middle class.  That is the problem that needs to be solved.


No, that is your issue. There are others who see such a corporate environment as ideal.

 

As to your issue - fine, how do you fix it?? Shall we have all wages (and prices?) government regulated?


Yes, I agree there are - MANY - others who see the Corporate Environment as Ideal - at least 46,000 and 1

 

1. Donald Trump - 6 Chapter 11 Bankruptcies

 

2. The 46,000 others on average each year in the USA who file Chapter 11 Bankruptcy

 

Allowing them to escape the Personal Responsibility of the Bad Decisons they themselves made and instead put the burden of those Bad Decisons onto the backs of those who provided them with their Financing, Labor & Materials

 

Bankruptcy.png

 

 

 

Source - http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/bankruptcies

 

 

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 54 of 137

Capitalism produices the best stuff and the worst people of any economic system in History.

 

The question is how to have Government minimize the damage those terrible people cause the rest of us while continuing to have access to the good stuff.

 

Government has been doing a terrible job of both since 1980, so to restore the balance that produced and grew the Middle Class, repeal the Reagan taxscam, reinstate revenue sharing, and grant stakeholders rights that will keep their jobs in this country.

 

Then we can move on to things like passing laws that keep the number of deaths from food contamination near ZERO in the EU while we shrug and accept 9,000 dead kids and old people every year because, somehow, we're too dumb to prevent it.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 55 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:


I don't understand your point. Should the government "step in" to redress inequities in the work place or should they not. I'm not sure what this squabble is about. The government should step in when illegalities have been committed by a corporation. ie Wells Fargo, Enron.

 

And by the way what other many ways that you posted are? please enlighten me?

 

Please clarify your question and I shall attempt enlightenment.

You were the one that answered PC about there were other many ways so I don't know to what you were referring.
Rk. be kind, with PC the poster is new, and your posts are also new to the poster. 

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 56 of 137

Meanwhile, in an effort to get the discussion back on track - the idea of worker owned and managed companies has a certain appeal. However, as was pointed out in post #1 it is not necessarily that easy. One possibility as mentioned by Snoopy is for the employees of an existing business to band together, pool their money and buy it from the owner and/or stockholders.

 

Another approach was for a group wanting to create a "start-up" to approach investors. The problem is that such investors have influence and do make a profit from the efforts of the workers. Not a bad thing, but it is opposed to the basic idea of a real co-op.

 

So, are those two possibilities sufficient or do some want additional options?

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 57 of 137

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:


When industries refuse to police themselves, then the government is forced to step in and do it for them.  A perfect example is the recent Untied Airlines fiasco.  Either United will take steps to never do that again (it is as simple as increasing their incentive to be "bumped") or the government will do something to force them to do it.  The choice is theirs, so either control it yourself, or wait for the government to tell you what you have to do.

 

"Step in" in what way. We do have OSHA but that is not the topic. The topic is the advisability or lack there of of workers' owned and operated businesses and how to bring it about (if you are in favor of that). I do not see UAL in that subject.

 

So, your thinking on the topic?


 


It is your claiming everything is political that is abstract and subjective. Your example is simply a school project that is not worth responding to.


And yet, here you are - responding but still no mention of what those "many ways" might be.


I was responding to you about the difference between CEO and worker pay.  Since you no longer care to talk about that I am guessing our conversation is over.


Silly me, I thought, "There are many ways for workers to own pieces of a company" actually meant, "There are many ways for workers to own pieces of a company". Now I find out it meant something about wage disparity. You are right, since all you want to do is play the "answer my question" game, there is nothing more to discuss.


I will only have a discussion with somebody who actually wants to have a discussion and stay on the topic.  At least I have had the common courtesy to respond to a question.


If you have a question germane to the topic, please state it. Otherwise, you can continue to play the old "question game".

 

Bottom line - what is your question??

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 58 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:


When industries refuse to police themselves, then the government is forced to step in and do it for them.  A perfect example is the recent Untied Airlines fiasco.  Either United will take steps to never do that again (it is as simple as increasing their incentive to be "bumped") or the government will do something to force them to do it.  The choice is theirs, so either control it yourself, or wait for the government to tell you what you have to do.

 

"Step in" in what way. We do have OSHA but that is not the topic. The topic is the advisability or lack there of of workers' owned and operated businesses and how to bring it about (if you are in favor of that). I do not see UAL in that subject.

 

So, your thinking on the topic?


 


It is your claiming everything is political that is abstract and subjective. Your example is simply a school project that is not worth responding to.


And yet, here you are - responding but still no mention of what those "many ways" might be.


I was responding to you about the difference between CEO and worker pay.  Since you no longer care to talk about that I am guessing our conversation is over.


Silly me, I thought, "There are many ways for workers to own pieces of a company" actually meant, "There are many ways for workers to own pieces of a company". Now I find out it meant something about wage disparity. You are right, since all you want to do is play the "answer my question" game, there is nothing more to discuss.


I will only have a discussion with somebody who actually wants to have a discussion and stay on the topic.  At least I have had the common courtesy to respond to a question.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 59 of 137

@rker321 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

 


Not excusing, no ravages, just a question. When people suggest the government "stepping in" I just wonder what they mean - but no one seems to want to address that. Considering the topic, when it comes up here it would appear they mean step in to either create a company or take over a company.


Oh!!! Rk  is me remember?
I don't know the intentions or what they mean by goverment stepping in and what you have stated is that Government should create a company or take over a company?  Really,?  where and how did you get that idea ? I haven't seen anyone in this  thread or anywhere in which anyone has actually stated that Government should create or take over anything. please!!!!! do get real.
I just posted an example on when Government has stepped in the Well Fargo situation. and that is probably as far as where government should  step in. Or the Enron situation. remember? 
And by the way what other many ways that you posted are? please enlighten me?
CEO's  are an aspect of the type of corporations that we have in the US. and they have been not so good, I don't even think that they are good for the stockholders. I wonder how much their stock would be is the profits were higher and they didn't include those ridiculous salaries.


I don't understand your point. Should the government "step in" to redress inequities in the work place or should they not. I'm not sure what this squabble is about.

 

And by the way what other many ways that you posted are? please enlighten me?

 

Please clarify your question and I shall attempt enlightenment.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 60 of 137

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:


When industries refuse to police themselves, then the government is forced to step in and do it for them.  A perfect example is the recent Untied Airlines fiasco.  Either United will take steps to never do that again (it is as simple as increasing their incentive to be "bumped") or the government will do something to force them to do it.  The choice is theirs, so either control it yourself, or wait for the government to tell you what you have to do.

 

"Step in" in what way. We do have OSHA but that is not the topic. The topic is the advisability or lack there of of workers' owned and operated businesses and how to bring it about (if you are in favor of that). I do not see UAL in that subject.

 

So, your thinking on the topic?


 


It is your claiming everything is political that is abstract and subjective. Your example is simply a school project that is not worth responding to.


And yet, here you are - responding but still no mention of what those "many ways" might be.


I was responding to you about the difference between CEO and worker pay.  Since you no longer care to talk about that I am guessing our conversation is over.


Silly me, I thought, "There are many ways for workers to own pieces of a company" actually meant, "There are many ways for workers to own pieces of a company". Now I find out it meant something about wage disparity. You are right, since all you want to do is play the "answer my question" game, there is nothing more to discuss.

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