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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 21 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

@Richva wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@nyadrn wrote:

Why don't you look at an actual existing co-op.  Example Publix (interestingly started in "the south" : ) )

 .

This same example was just posted so I will delete mine.


I don't know if you saw the response, so here it is again:

In 2013 the CEO of Publix received a salary of $1.37 million. I don't think that fits the model of a co-op in which all profits go to the workers.


I am not sure why it does not fit the model.  You pay the CEO (the leader?) a fair wage based on market forces.  Why should an employee owned organization pay less wages to any worker than what the market commands? 

 

I started out by expressing concerns that your hypothetical company did not match the market forces which exist in the real world. I am afraid your model is getting to far away from what actual employee owned companies do.


Yes, it does fit a model and it is a good one. But there are those who are opposed to any model where anyone other than the worker make a profit from the efforts of the worker.

 

There are many models out there. Any one that involves agreement with all parties concerned is cool with me. My only objection comes from government intervention.

 

I am sure you have seen the posts about how much the CEOs make. The theory is that they are taking that money from the workers. The Publix model may be objected to by such posters.


You are comparing apples and oranges.  Publix CEO does not make 335 times the front line workers pay, it is probably less than 100 times.  This is an old article comparing Publix CEO pay to other companies.

 

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-05-08/business/os-cfb-kassab-publix-ceo-paid-less-20110508_...

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Valued Social Butterfly
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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 22 of 137

@Richva wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@nyadrn wrote:

Why don't you look at an actual existing co-op.  Example Publix (interestingly started in "the south" : ) )

 .

This same example was just posted so I will delete mine.


I don't know if you saw the response, so here it is again:

In 2013 the CEO of Publix received a salary of $1.37 million. I don't think that fits the model of a co-op in which all profits go to the workers.


I am not sure why it does not fit the model.  You pay the CEO (the leader?) a fair wage based on market forces.  Why should an employee owned organization pay less wages to any worker than what the market commands? 

 

I started out by expressing concerns that your hypothetical company did not match the market forces which exist in the real world. I am afraid your model is getting to far away from what actual employee owned companies do.


Yes, it does fit a model and it is a good one. But there are those who are opposed to any model where anyone other than the worker make a profit from the efforts of the worker.

 

There are many models out there. Any one that involves agreement with all parties concerned is cool with me. My only objection comes from government intervention.

 

I am sure you have seen the posts about how much the CEOs make. The theory is that they are taking that money from the workers. The Publix model may be objected to by such posters.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 23 of 137

@GailL1 wrote:

@nyadrn wrote:

@GailL1 wrote:

The Publix chain is a family owned business with profit sharing for employees, if they wish to participate and they are vested.

 >>

 

Publix is a private corp but wholly owned by the employees.



Maybe we are just talking semantics here 

From Forbes

https://www.forbes.com/sites/briansolomon/2015/05/28/publix-floridas-supermarket-king-mints-another-...

 

The multi-generational Jenkins family owns about 20% of Publix, but employees are the controlling shareholders, with an 80% stake. All staffers who have put in 1,000 work hours and a year of employment receive an additional 8.5% of their total pay in the form of Publix stock.

 

I'm not saying this is a bad model but it seems to be far from what I would consider a cooperative of owners running their own company.


I would think owing 80% of a company would quality as employee owned. If I owned 80% of a company I would say "I own XXXXX" and feel I was telling the truth. 

 

If you want an example of a cooperative, use Dairy Farmers of America with  $12B in revenue.  The attached article has the top 300 cooperatives in the world by revenue. 

 

https://www.thenews.coop/49090/sector/view-top-300-co-operatives-around-world/

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 24 of 137

@GailL1 wrote:

@nyadrn wrote:

@GailL1 wrote:

The Publix chain is a family owned business with profit sharing for employees, if they wish to participate and they are vested.

 >>

 

Publix is a private corp but wholly owned by the employees.



Maybe we are just talking semantics here 

From Forbes

https://www.forbes.com/sites/briansolomon/2015/05/28/publix-floridas-supermarket-king-mints-another-...

 

The multi-generational Jenkins family owns about 20% of Publix, but employees are the controlling shareholders, with an 80% stake. All staffers who have put in 1,000 work hours and a year of employment receive an additional 8.5% of their total pay in the form of Publix stock.

 

I'm not saying this is a bad model but it seems to be far from what I would consider a cooperative of owners running their own company.


Ok.  I doesn't matter to me what model is used.  

Life's a Journey, not a Destination" Aerosmith
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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 25 of 137

@nyadrn wrote:

@GailL1 wrote:

The Publix chain is a family owned business with profit sharing for employees, if they wish to participate and they are vested.

 >>

 

Publix is a private corp but wholly owned by the employees.



Maybe we are just talking semantics here 

From Forbes

https://www.forbes.com/sites/briansolomon/2015/05/28/publix-floridas-supermarket-king-mints-another-...

 

The multi-generational Jenkins family owns about 20% of Publix, but employees are the controlling shareholders, with an 80% stake. All staffers who have put in 1,000 work hours and a year of employment receive an additional 8.5% of their total pay in the form of Publix stock.

 

I'm not saying this is a bad model but it seems to be far from what I would consider a cooperative of owners running their own company.

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 26 of 137

@GailL1 wrote:

The Publix chain is a family owned business with profit sharing for employees, if they wish to participate and they are vested.

 >>

 

Publix is a private corp but wholly owned by the employees.


Life's a Journey, not a Destination" Aerosmith
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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 27 of 137

@GailL1 wrote:

The Publix chain is a family owned business with profit sharing for employees, if they wish to participate and they are vested.

 

That's different than a coop. 

 

A better example would be a partnership business structure with all actively participating members, regardless of the number.

They build it, they run it, they divide up the profits.


I am not sure that is the model the original post was about. I get the feeling it is of a successful company handed to the workers by the government.  

 

I think the last time that happened would be in Chile and we are seeing how that ended. There is no reason workers cannot own a company as stockholders own a company.  There is no reason a worker cannot be a stockholder.  

 

Unless, you are trying to come up with an intentionally unworkable model and then..........have at it.  

 

I pointed out accounting partnerships, law partnerships, employee stock ownership programs. All examples of the employees owning the company and all have a pretty traditional top management structure.  

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 28 of 137

The one part of the triangle of business that you have not discussed is the buyer.   That is as important a part of business as any other.. maybe more so.  You can have the best product, the best employees and if no one buys the product the business will fail.  So basically the customer is king, and no one has yet to persuade customers, who are also the workers in the business world, that it would be best for them not to buy from companies that are not good to their workers.  Before you post all the excuses, think about it.  That is the real world.

 

Life's a Journey, not a Destination" Aerosmith
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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 29 of 137

The Publix chain is a family owned business with profit sharing for employees, if they wish to participate and they are vested.

 

That's different than a coop. 

 

A better example would be a partnership business structure with all actively participating members, regardless of the number.

They build it, they run it, they divide up the profits.

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 30 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

@nyadrn wrote:

Why don't you look at an actual existing co-op.  Example Publix (interestingly started in "the south" : ) )

 .

This same example was just posted so I will delete mine.


I don't know if you saw the response, so here it is again:

In 2013 the CEO of Publix received a salary of $1.37 million. I don't think that fits the model of a co-op in which all profits go to the workers.


I am not sure why it does not fit the model.  You pay the CEO (the leader?) a fair wage based on market forces.  Why should an employee owned organization pay less wages to any worker than what the market commands? 

 

I started out by expressing concerns that your hypothetical company did not match the market forces which exist in the real world. I am afraid your model is getting to far away from what actual employee owned companies do.

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