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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 1 of 137

@Olderscout66 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:


How would you know?  Do you think because people have different opinions that they couldn't be successful in the work force.  I for one, was an executive (never at the CEO level) and really got tired of seeing companies trying to make profits and the CEO make a larger bonus by cutting the wages of their lowest level workers.  If you believe that corporations are bastions of efficiency and do everything correct and perfectly, you have not lived in the real world.


You totally miss the point. It has nothing to do with the politics of the individual in the work force. The issue was how do the workers create that "Boss"-less, CEO-less, stockholder-less corporation in which no one benefits from the labor of the workers.


Your "point" is meaningless. There has never been a corporation such as you describe, and its highly unlikely one will ever exist, and why would anyone want it to?

 

The religous orders that practices a truely "marxist" economic system, raised their own capital, organized their own management and provided their own labor. The difference is the workers get an equal say in the distribution of profits. The same holds true for Employee Stock Ownership Programs (ESOPs) in the USA and virtually all corporations in Germany, via their Workers Councils, which is why those organizations have the Chief Executive only 20-30 times what workers make, JUST LIKE AMERICAN CORPORATIONS did until 1966 and the rest of the world still does.

 

The German Seimans Corp  average worker made 61,000 euros in 2015 while the CEO made 1,878,000 euros, just a shade over 30 times the workers' compensation. Compare this to the slightly smaller US firm, General Electric, where the average worker got $64,000 in 2015 and the CEO made $38,000,000 594 times the workers' compensation. GE's first line supervisors made $115,000 and the Senior VP's knocked down between $5,000,000 and $7,000,000, many times more than the CEO of a similar but larger corporation in Germany.

 

The issue is NOT if we should try and invent a totally imaginary corporation based on some RW fantasy, but how to find a way to give American workers a more equible share of profits before the Middle Class vanishes.

 

There is no need to try and find a path to this more equible situation, we already found AND USED it for 40 years - it's called a reasonable income tax code.

 

Here's how Germany is doing the equalization today:

Germany individual income tax rates, 2016

 

Tax %Tax Base (EUR)
0Up to 8,652
14%8,653-53,665
42%53,666-254,446
45%254,447 and over

 

We can do the same by repealing the Reagan Taxscam.


What has the so-called Reagan Taxscam to do with worker owned and operated businesses?

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 2 of 137

@Richva wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:
Again, definition of terms. The free market I see it is not a level playing field to the extent that the hard worker will always have an edge. Of course companies prefer monopolies, that is where the government comes into the picture to assure the freedom of the free market. I have no problem with the consumer having knowledge.

Hmm. Bernie Madoff comes to mind.  If there were no SEC, he would still be running his Ponzie scheme.  

 

Wells Fargo opening accounts for people when they did not authorize them. 

 

Enron investors were all hard working people, I am sure. Surely the employees in the stock retirement plan were. 

 

Volkswagen emissions scandal where cars lost a ton of value. Hardworking owners?

 

Hard work does not mean you are safe from predators.  Conservatives tout free enterprise as if the playing field is completely level and it is not.  The above are just a few examples of why we need laws and rules.   We also need standards so businesses know when they are operating appropriately just as we need traffic laws so you know which side of the road to follow. 

 


Of course we need rules enforced by the government to insure the freedom of the free market. What is the point of the above examples?

 

And traffic rules are not connected with the economy and businesses - the topic.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 3 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:


How would you know?  Do you think because people have different opinions that they couldn't be successful in the work force.  I for one, was an executive (never at the CEO level) and really got tired of seeing companies trying to make profits and the CEO make a larger bonus by cutting the wages of their lowest level workers.  If you believe that corporations are bastions of efficiency and do everything correct and perfectly, you have not lived in the real world.


You totally miss the point. It has nothing to do with the politics of the individual in the work force. The issue was how do the workers create that "Boss"-less, CEO-less, stockholder-less corporation in which no one benefits from the labor of the workers.


Your "point" is meaningless. There has never been a corporation such as you describe, and its highly unlikely one will ever exist, and why would anyone want it to?

 

The religous orders that practices a truely "marxist" economic system, raised their own capital, organized their own management and provided their own labor. The difference is the workers get an equal say in the distribution of profits. The same holds true for Employee Stock Ownership Programs (ESOPs) in the USA and virtually all corporations in Germany, via their Workers Councils, which is why those organizations have the Chief Executive only 20-30 times what workers make, JUST LIKE AMERICAN CORPORATIONS did until 1966 and the rest of the world still does.

 

The German Seimans Corp  average worker made 61,000 euros in 2015 while the CEO made 1,878,000 euros, just a shade over 30 times the workers' compensation. Compare this to the slightly smaller US firm, General Electric, where the average worker got $64,000 in 2015 and the CEO made $38,000,000 594 times the workers' compensation. GE's first line supervisors made $115,000 and the Senior VP's knocked down between $5,000,000 and $7,000,000, many times more than the CEO of a similar but larger corporation in Germany.

 

The issue is NOT if we should try and invent a totally imaginary corporation based on some RW fantasy, but how to find a way to give American workers a more equible share of profits before the Middle Class vanishes.

 

There is no need to try and find a path to this more equible situation, we already found AND USED it for 40 years - it's called a reasonable income tax code.

 

Here's how Germany is doing the equalization today:

Germany individual income tax rates, 2016

 

Tax %Tax Base (EUR)
0Up to 8,652
14%8,653-53,665
42%53,666-254,446
45%254,447 and over

 

We can do the same by repealing the Reagan Taxscam.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 4 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:
Again, definition of terms. The free market I see it is not a level playing field to the extent that the hard worker will always have an edge. Of course companies prefer monopolies, that is where the government comes into the picture to assure the freedom of the free market. I have no problem with the consumer having knowledge.

Hmm. Bernie Madoff comes to mind.  If there were no SEC, he would still be running his Ponzie scheme.  

 

Wells Fargo opening accounts for people when they did not authorize them. 

 

Enron investors were all hard working people, I am sure. Surely the employees in the stock retirement plan were. 

 

Volkswagen emissions scandal where cars lost a ton of value. Hardworking owners?

 

Hard work does not mean you are safe from predators.  Conservatives tout free enterprise as if the playing field is completely level and it is not.  The above are just a few examples of why we need laws and rules.   We also need standards so businesses know when they are operating appropriately just as we need traffic laws so you know which side of the road to follow. 

 

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 5 of 137

@Richva wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

Do you have anything to support that last comment was was it just the required snark?? Personally, as I have previously posted, the ideal is a free market economy with the government playing a key role in keeping it free with only market forces determining success or failure. 


With the understanding that there are rules to that particular road.  Your "only market forces" makes the assumption that all parties are on a level playing field.  As we all know, consumers do not have access to the same information that companies do.  Companies prefer monopolies to open competition. Advertising has always had to be verified or they tend to lie.  Stuff like that.


Again, definition of terms. The free market I see it is not a level playing field to the extent that the hard worker will always have an edge. Of course companies prefer monopolies, that is where the government comes into the picture to assure the freedom of the free market. I have no problem with the consumer having knowledge.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 6 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

Do you have anything to support that last comment was was it just the required snark?? Personally, as I have previously posted, the ideal is a free market economy with the government playing a key role in keeping it free with only market forces determining success or failure. 


With the understanding that there are rules to that particular road.  Your "only market forces" makes the assumption that all parties are on a level playing field.  As we all know, consumers do not have access to the same information that companies do.  Companies prefer monopolies to open competition. Advertising has always had to be verified or they tend to lie.  Stuff like that.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 7 of 137

@Richva wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

Quite a bit of rhetoric there but I think we are in agreement, the free market is the way to go, not government established workers' co-ops.


That is true. Thank God none of the Democrats want to abolish any companies and turn them over to a worker's co-op.   Can't speak for the Republicans.  They tend to be pretty sketchy on how capitalism and market forces work. 


Do you have anything to support that last comment was was it just the required snark?? Personally, as I have previously posted, the ideal is a free market economy with the government playing a key role in keeping it free with only market forces determining success or failure. 

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 8 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

Quite a bit of rhetoric there but I think we are in agreement, the free market is the way to go, not government established workers' co-ops.


That is true. Thank God none of the Democrats want to abolish any companies and turn them over to a worker's co-op.   Can't speak for the Republicans.  They tend to be pretty sketchy on how capitalism and market forces work. 

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 9 of 137

@Richva wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

 

Back to the issue. It isn't whether or not workers' co-ops exist and can work. It is the definition of workers' co-ops for example, should a CEO make 100 times the workers or 10 times or the same?  Then there is the issue of how the co-op is created - for example, is it O.K. for the government to either created it or convert an existing business to a workers' co-op?


Shouldn't the definition be based on what already exists in the real world?  I use National Dairy Farmers because it is the largets U.S. co-op and I can remember it's name.  

 

The co-op, partnership, or employee owned stock corporation would all decide their CEO's pay based on the factors important to the owner's. Just like any General Motors, for instance.  Now that companies are required to report all reimbursement to their CEO's, it will either drop or not but the owners/Stockholders now know what they are paying.  Plus, this is not part of the conversation. If you want to talk salary comparisons, we should start a new thread. 

 

I don't know how Conservatives feel about taking a company away from its owners but Democrats and particularly Progressives would be the first to call that illegal and immoral. As I said, I can't speak for Conservatives. 


Quite a bit of rhetoric there but I think we are in agreement, the free market is the way to go, not government established workers' co-ops.

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Message 10 of 137

@sp362 wrote:

@jimc91 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:


You are comparing apples and oranges.  Publix CEO does not make 335 times the front line workers pay, it is probably less than 100 times.  This is an old article comparing Publix CEO pay to other companies.

 

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-05-08/business/os-cfb-kassab-publix-ceo-paid-less-20110508_...


@sp362

 

You make an interesting point here.  Just curious, what is an acceptable ratio for CEO pay? 50, 100, 200, 300.

 

Also I would ask, Who gets to determine what is acceptable?

 

 


I already discussed that earlier in the thread.  Our executives are overpaid in comparison to other countries.  Also, when you go back in history, in 1965 the ratio of CEO to worker pay was about 20 to 1.  Where it is now, is just a ridiculous level.  Either industries can choose to police themselves, or it will be up to Congress to decide what is fair and do it for them.

Look no further than Delta Airlines recent move increasing their compensation for bumping a passenger.  While some of that is for PR purposes, I think it was also done hoping that Congress does not step in and tell them what they have to do.


Your bottom line seems to be that the government sets the rates of pay - true?? Yes, a company can conform to government dictates or the government does it. So, either way, it is the government.

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