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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 31 of 137

@nyadrn wrote:

Why don't you look at an actual existing co-op.  Example Publix (interestingly started in "the south" : ) )

 .

This same example was just posted so I will delete mine.


I don't know if you saw the response, so here it is again:

In 2013 the CEO of Publix received a salary of $1.37 million. I don't think that fits the model of a co-op in which all profits go to the workers.

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Message 32 of 137

Why don't you look at an actual existing co-op.  Example Publix (interestingly started in "the south" : ) )

 .

This same example was just posted so I will delete mine.

Life's a Journey, not a Destination" Aerosmith
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Message 33 of 137

@Richva wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

KSHAH is right. Instead of the constant stream of insults and trolling, can we discuss the basics of this topic:

1) Is there merit to businesses solely owned and operated by the workers;

2) How can such entities come into being (on their own or via government creation)?

 

My views - as to 1) certainly. That is part of the free market and if any group of workers want to and can, I say "Go for it".

 

As to 2), Snoopy offered the idea of employees buying out the owners of an existing firm, I like that. Starting up from scratch can be tough as illustrated in the Acme example but possibly doable. I would be opposed, however, to the government converting any private company into a co-op or the government creating such a co-op. That puts the government "in charge" of a portion of the economy in competition with the private ownership.


Employee ownership seems to work for Publix Supermarkets with 182,500 employees along with 99 other firms as listed in this article.  I would also point out that companies set up as sole proprietors  and partnerships are also owned by the people who work there, i.e. employees.  I worked for KPMG and Deloitte in my career and both were huge partnerships owned by the people who worked there. Stock ownership plans make many employees owners of companies.

 

Of course, if the concept is to seize the company then hand it over to "the workers", that is a really, really dumb idea and has been proved so repeatedly in real life. 

 

If the question is whether an employee owned company an prosper, that has also been proved in real life.  

 

 

 

 

https://www.nceo.org/articles/employee-ownership-100


In 2013 the CEO of Publix received a salary of $1.37 million. I don't think that fits the model of a co-op in which all profits go to the workers.

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Message 34 of 137

@Olderscout66 wrote:

Now rk admits his examples are not "realistic" after spending weeks demanding people try and comment on them, and declare for or against Marx.

 

Communism never happened (except for the very early Christian Church and some religeous communities like the Amana Colony), so the question is:

 

"Do you support the ideas Marx expressed in his "10 Planks" OR do you support the evil they were intended to correct?"

 

Republicans are generally in favor of evil that is done to the 99%, Christians oppose such evil on moral grounds and thinking men and women oppose the evil because, as Marx observed, it cannot sustain itself, and leads to cyclical financial disasters for the World.


Rather than concerning yourself with what you perceive as "Now RK admits...."  you might want to pay closer attention to RK's words of wisdom - "KSHAH is right. Instead of the constant stream of insults and trolling, can we discuss the basics of this topic".

 

BTW - I agree Communism doesn't work. 

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Message 35 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

KSHAH is right. Instead of the constant stream of insults and trolling, can we discuss the basics of this topic:

1) Is there merit to businesses solely owned and operated by the workers;

2) How can such entities come into being (on their own or via government creation)?

 

My views - as to 1) certainly. That is part of the free market and if any group of workers want to and can, I say "Go for it".

 

As to 2), Snoopy offered the idea of employees buying out the owners of an existing firm, I like that. Starting up from scratch can be tough as illustrated in the Acme example but possibly doable. I would be opposed, however, to the government converting any private company into a co-op or the government creating such a co-op. That puts the government "in charge" of a portion of the economy in competition with the private ownership.


Employee ownership seems to work for Publix Supermarkets with 182,500 employees along with 99 other firms as listed in this article.  I would also point out that companies set up as sole proprietors  and partnerships are also owned by the people who work there, i.e. employees.  I worked for KPMG and Deloitte in my career and both were huge partnerships owned by the people who worked there. Stock ownership plans make many employees owners of companies.

 

Of course, if the concept is to seize the company then hand it over to "the workers", that is a really, really dumb idea and has been proved so repeatedly in real life. 

 

If the question is whether an employee owned company an prosper, that has also been proved in real life.  

 

 

 

 

https://www.nceo.org/articles/employee-ownership-100

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Message 36 of 137

Now rk admits his examples are not "realistic" after spending weeks demanding people try and comment on them, and declare for or against Marx.

 

Communism never happened (except for the very early Christian Church and some religeous communities like the Amana Colony), so the question is:

 

"Do you support the ideas Marx expressed in his "10 Planks" OR do you support the evil they were intended to correct?"

 

Republicans are generally in favor of evil that is done to the 99%, Christians oppose such evil on moral grounds and thinking men and women oppose the evil because, as Marx observed, it cannot sustain itself, and leads to cyclical financial disasters for the World.

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Message 37 of 137

@ChasKy53 wrote:

Anyone posting a topic that is complete fallacy and then posting trollish responses to most all replies to the topic cannot expect any kind of "adult discussion".


KSHAH is right. Instead of the constant stream of insults and trolling, can we discuss the basics of this topic:

1) Is there merit to businesses solely owned and operated by the workers;

2) How can such entities come into being (on their own or via government creation)?

 

My views - as to 1) certainly. That is part of the free market and if any group of workers want to and can, I say "Go for it".

 

As to 2), Snoopy offered the idea of employees buying out the owners of an existing firm, I like that. Starting up from scratch can be tough as illustrated in the Acme example but possibly doable. I would be opposed, however, to the government converting any private company into a co-op or the government creating such a co-op. That puts the government "in charge" of a portion of the economy in competition with the private ownership.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 38 of 137

Hi all,

This thread is starting to get off-topic. While you may have different opinions, please remember to be respectful of one another as our guidelines state: This is a diverse community of people with diverse opinions. It is up to each of us to be polite and treat each other with respect.

You can read the full guidelines here: http://community.aarp.org/t5/custom/page/page-id/Guidelines

Thanks and happy posting!

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Message 39 of 137

Anyone posting a topic that is complete fallacy and then posting trollish responses to most all replies to the topic cannot expect any kind of "adult discussion".


Democrats in 2020
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Message 40 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

As I was saying…...there are those who see the ideal  industrial situation as composed of “workers’ co-ops” - no “bosses”, no Execs, no shareholders. In other words, no one gaining benefit from the work of the workers except the workers.

 

Let’s see how that would work. Let’s consider the “All American Widget Corp.”. It is a successful niche business provided a constant stream of products wanted by the consumer. It has 200 employees who are well paid but also has those other folks so the workers do not share the total profits, others take some. To have established the “workers’ paradise” the business would have had to start differently than it did with it's founder and investors. Back then, those 200 hundred workers would have had to get together and see the market for widgets and decide to form their co-op. Then they would have needed a factory. So, they would have had to find the needed group of about 75 construction workers of varying skills all banded together with no management. The builders would have to find non-corporate material providers and, for delivery, non-corporate truckers driving non-corporate trucks. Then, of course, the necessary machinery and raw material becomes an issue.

 

Well, two and a half years later, they are up and running and shipping their product off to independent (non-corporate) retailers. And all is well in the workers paradise.


Ya gotta wonder though, during those two and a half years how did they eat and put shoes on their children. And where did they get the money to pay for the factory construction, equipment and supplies?


No ... "Ya gotta wonder" if your first assumption was not true:

" It has 200 employees who are well paid  ...." 

 

Your nice story falls all apart if the 200 employees were NOT well paid rk ..... and especially if those employees were not well paid because the business's founder and investors decided to keep most all of the revenue created by the business.

 All would not be "well" nor any "paradise for the workers".

 

And therein lies the fallacy of your argument .... it's all based on an enormously risky first assumption!


How do you know what the employees were paid??

YOU quantified it as "well paid" .... YOUR determination of pay and a rather optimistic assumption. And if your assumption is wrong, then your argument is a fallacy.

I created an example for discussion purposes YOU claimed to know the pay scale.

No, YOU created the pay scale with your assumption that all employees were "well paid" .... YOUR words, NOT MINE!

 

 

The point has to do with the establishment of the co-op. Any thoughts on that and how they live during that wind-up period?

No, it was your widget story that I addressed ..... and it was all based on well paid employees ..... an unlikely assumption.

No, you are totally dodging the co-op issue. Do you or do you not support co-ops? If yes, how do we get there?

No, you interjected "co-op" into my comments, a fact "you are totally dodging" ...... and a continuation of the insertion of your words into my comments.


 It is a question based on the topic.

In an argument I never initiated nor advanced.

 

 

One last chance to engage -

No, another opportunity for you to pose questions to me for an argument I never initiated nor advanced!

 

Do you or do you not support co-ops? If yes, how do we get there? 

An irrelevant question for me as I never initiated nor advanced anything relative to co-ops.

It is, however, a continued evasion from my comment wherein I pointed out the fallacy in your business model.


Since you have no interest in co-ops (the topic), I'll assume you have nothing to contribute and say "good-bye". 

And yet another and apparently final evasion from my comment wherein I pointed out the fallacy in your business model! 


 


 

DUMP TRUMP AND DITCH MITCH TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!
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