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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 41 of 137

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

As I was saying…...there are those who see the ideal  industrial situation as composed of “workers’ co-ops” - no “bosses”, no Execs, no shareholders. In other words, no one gaining benefit from the work of the workers except the workers.

 

Let’s see how that would work. Let’s consider the “All American Widget Corp.”. It is a successful niche business provided a constant stream of products wanted by the consumer. It has 200 employees who are well paid but also has those other folks so the workers do not share the total profits, others take some. To have established the “workers’ paradise” the business would have had to start differently than it did with it's founder and investors. Back then, those 200 hundred workers would have had to get together and see the market for widgets and decide to form their co-op. Then they would have needed a factory. So, they would have had to find the needed group of about 75 construction workers of varying skills all banded together with no management. The builders would have to find non-corporate material providers and, for delivery, non-corporate truckers driving non-corporate trucks. Then, of course, the necessary machinery and raw material becomes an issue.

 

Well, two and a half years later, they are up and running and shipping their product off to independent (non-corporate) retailers. And all is well in the workers paradise.


Ya gotta wonder though, during those two and a half years how did they eat and put shoes on their children. And where did they get the money to pay for the factory construction, equipment and supplies?


No ... "Ya gotta wonder" if your first assumption was not true:

" It has 200 employees who are well paid  ...." 

 

Your nice story falls all apart if the 200 employees were NOT well paid rk ..... and especially if those employees were not well paid because the business's founder and investors decided to keep most all of the revenue created by the business.

 All would not be "well" nor any "paradise for the workers".

 

And therein lies the fallacy of your argument .... it's all based on an enormously risky first assumption!


How do you know what the employees were paid??

YOU quantified it as "well paid" .... YOUR determination of pay and a rather optimistic assumption. And if your assumption is wrong, then your argument is a fallacy.

I created an example for discussion purposes YOU claimed to know the pay scale.

No, YOU created the pay scale with your assumption that all employees were "well paid" .... YOUR words, NOT MINE!

 

 

The point has to do with the establishment of the co-op. Any thoughts on that and how they live during that wind-up period?

No, it was your widget story that I addressed ..... and it was all based on well paid employees ..... an unlikely assumption.

No, you are totally dodging the co-op issue. Do you or do you not support co-ops? If yes, how do we get there?

No, you interjected "co-op" into my comments, a fact "you are totally dodging" ...... and a continuation of the insertion of your words into my comments.


 It is a question based on the topic.

In an argument I never initiated nor advanced.

 

 

One last chance to engage -

No, another opportunity for you to pose questions to me for an argument I never initiated nor advanced!

 

Do you or do you not support co-ops? If yes, how do we get there? 

An irrelevant question for me as I never initiated nor advanced anything relative to co-ops.

It is, however, a continued evasion from my comment wherein I pointed out the fallacy in your business model.


Since you have no interest in co-ops (the topic), I'll assume you have nothing to contribute and say "good-bye". 


 

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 42 of 137

@GailL1 wrote:

So what is the difference between a cooperative (coop) and a partnership, which can be formed with any number of participants, with all of them working for the benefit of the whole?


I believe that the idea in this context it is the same thing. The idea is to have no bosses, no Execs and no stockholders (except the workers themselves).

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 43 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

As I was saying…...there are those who see the ideal  industrial situation as composed of “workers’ co-ops” - no “bosses”, no Execs, no shareholders. In other words, no one gaining benefit from the work of the workers except the workers.

 

Let’s see how that would work. Let’s consider the “All American Widget Corp.”. It is a successful niche business provided a constant stream of products wanted by the consumer. It has 200 employees who are well paid but also has those other folks so the workers do not share the total profits, others take some. To have established the “workers’ paradise” the business would have had to start differently than it did with it's founder and investors. Back then, those 200 hundred workers would have had to get together and see the market for widgets and decide to form their co-op. Then they would have needed a factory. So, they would have had to find the needed group of about 75 construction workers of varying skills all banded together with no management. The builders would have to find non-corporate material providers and, for delivery, non-corporate truckers driving non-corporate trucks. Then, of course, the necessary machinery and raw material becomes an issue.

 

Well, two and a half years later, they are up and running and shipping their product off to independent (non-corporate) retailers. And all is well in the workers paradise.


Ya gotta wonder though, during those two and a half years how did they eat and put shoes on their children. And where did they get the money to pay for the factory construction, equipment and supplies?


No ... "Ya gotta wonder" if your first assumption was not true:

" It has 200 employees who are well paid  ...." 

 

Your nice story falls all apart if the 200 employees were NOT well paid rk ..... and especially if those employees were not well paid because the business's founder and investors decided to keep most all of the revenue created by the business.

 All would not be "well" nor any "paradise for the workers".

 

And therein lies the fallacy of your argument .... it's all based on an enormously risky first assumption!


How do you know what the employees were paid??

YOU quantified it as "well paid" .... YOUR determination of pay and a rather optimistic assumption. And if your assumption is wrong, then your argument is a fallacy.

I created an example for discussion purposes YOU claimed to know the pay scale.

No, YOU created the pay scale with your assumption that all employees were "well paid" .... YOUR words, NOT MINE!

 

 

The point has to do with the establishment of the co-op. Any thoughts on that and how they live during that wind-up period?

No, it was your widget story that I addressed ..... and it was all based on well paid employees ..... an unlikely assumption.

No, you are totally dodging the co-op issue. Do you or do you not support co-ops? If yes, how do we get there?

No, you interjected "co-op" into my comments, a fact "you are totally dodging" ...... and a continuation of the insertion of your words into my comments.


 It is a question based on the topic.

In an argument I never initiated nor advanced.

 

 

One last chance to engage -

No, another opportunity for you to pose questions to me for an argument I never initiated nor advanced!

 

Do you or do you not support co-ops? If yes, how do we get there? 

An irrelevant question for me as I never initiated nor advanced anything relative to co-ops.

It is, however, a continued evasion from my comment wherein I pointed out the fallacy in your business model.


 

DUMP TRUMP AND DITCH MITCH TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!
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Message 44 of 137

So what is the difference between a cooperative (coop) and a partnership, which can be formed with any number of participants, with all of them working for the benefit of the whole?


* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Message 45 of 137

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

As I was saying…...there are those who see the ideal  industrial situation as composed of “workers’ co-ops” - no “bosses”, no Execs, no shareholders. In other words, no one gaining benefit from the work of the workers except the workers.

 

Let’s see how that would work. Let’s consider the “All American Widget Corp.”. It is a successful niche business provided a constant stream of products wanted by the consumer. It has 200 employees who are well paid but also has those other folks so the workers do not share the total profits, others take some. To have established the “workers’ paradise” the business would have had to start differently than it did with it's founder and investors. Back then, those 200 hundred workers would have had to get together and see the market for widgets and decide to form their co-op. Then they would have needed a factory. So, they would have had to find the needed group of about 75 construction workers of varying skills all banded together with no management. The builders would have to find non-corporate material providers and, for delivery, non-corporate truckers driving non-corporate trucks. Then, of course, the necessary machinery and raw material becomes an issue.

 

Well, two and a half years later, they are up and running and shipping their product off to independent (non-corporate) retailers. And all is well in the workers paradise.


Ya gotta wonder though, during those two and a half years how did they eat and put shoes on their children. And where did they get the money to pay for the factory construction, equipment and supplies?


No ... "Ya gotta wonder" if your first assumption was not true:

" It has 200 employees who are well paid  ...." 

 

Your nice story falls all apart if the 200 employees were NOT well paid rk ..... and especially if those employees were not well paid because the business's founder and investors decided to keep most all of the revenue created by the business.

 All would not be "well" nor any "paradise for the workers".

 

And therein lies the fallacy of your argument .... it's all based on an enormously risky first assumption!


How do you know what the employees were paid??

YOU quantified it as "well paid" .... YOUR determination of pay and a rather optimistic assumption. And if your assumption is wrong, then your argument is a fallacy.

I created an example for discussion purposes YOU claimed to know the pay scale.

No, YOU created the pay scale with your assumption that all employees were "well paid" .... YOUR words, NOT MINE!

 

 

The point has to do with the establishment of the co-op. Any thoughts on that and how they live during that wind-up period?

No, it was your widget story that I addressed ..... and it was all based on well paid employees ..... an unlikely assumption.

No, you are totally dodging the co-op issue. Do you or do you not support co-ops? If yes, how do we get there?

No, you interjected "co-op" into my comments, a fact "you are totally dodging" ...... and a continuation of the insertion of your words into my comments.


 It is a question based on the topic. One last chance to engage -Do you or do you not support co-ops? If yes, how do we get there? 

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 46 of 137

@MIseker wrote:
Go to your county Farmers co op. you county also probably has an ag extension of your state university system.

And that is where I find out your opinion on the topic??

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Message 47 of 137

@mickstuder wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@sp362 wrote:

The issue is the average CEO whose pay is 335 times that of their workers.  They do deserve more, but 335 times is ridiculous.  The top of society are getting ahead at the determent of the average worker and, in the process, destroying the middle class.  That is the problem that needs to be solved.


No, that is your issue. There are others who see such a corporate environment as ideal.

 

As to your issue - fine, how do you fix it?? Shall we have all wages (and prices?) government regulated?


Yes, I agree there are - MANY - others who see the Corporate Environment as Ideal - at least 46,000 and 1

 

1. Donald Trump - 6 Chapter 11 Bankruptcies

 

2. The 46,000 others on average each year in the USA who file Chapter 11 Bankruptcy

 

Allowing them to escape the Personal Responsibility of the Bad Decisons they themselves made and instead put the burden of those Bad Decisons onto the backs of those who provided them with their Financing, Labor & Materials

 

Bankruptcy.png

 

 

 

Source - http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/bankruptcies

 

O.K. you have stated the problem as you see it. What is your answer? One option would be to have no corporations nor private ownership. The other would be things like the Acme Widget Corp. which is worker owned and operated. Do you see either as the solution or do you have a third choice?


 

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Message 48 of 137

@Olderscout66 wrote:

Capitalism produices the best stuff and the worst people of any economic system in History.

 

The question is how to have Government minimize the damage those terrible people cause the rest of us while continuing to have access to the good stuff.

 

Government has been doing a terrible job of both since 1980, so to restore the balance that produced and grew the Middle Class, repeal the Reagan taxscam, reinstate revenue sharing, and grant stakeholders rights that will keep their jobs in this country.

 

Then we can move on to things like passing laws that keep the number of deaths from food contamination near ZERO in the EU while we shrug and accept 9,000 dead kids and old people every year because, somehow, we're too dumb to prevent it.


Please help me understand how that is related to worker owned and operated businesses without bosses, owners and stockholders.

 

I can't see a so-called taxscam, revenue sharing, terrible people, or food contamination as related.

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Message 49 of 137

@Roxanna35 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:


I don't understand your point. Should the government "step in" to redress inequities in the work place or should they not. I'm not sure what this squabble is about. The government should step in when illegalities have been committed by a corporation. ie Wells Fargo, Enron.

 

And by the way what other many ways that you posted are? please enlighten me?

 

Please clarify your question and I shall attempt enlightenment.

You were the one that answered PC about there were other many ways so I don't know to what you were referring.
Rk. be kind, with PC the poster is new, and your posts are also new to the poster. 


I agree with your point about enforcing the law. But there are no laws on the books (yet) about establishing companies - although the SBA can be a help.

 

No, I didn't answer pc about "many ways". I asked him or her what was meant by that.

 

BTW - registered 1-24-2014 isn't all that new.

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Re: Acme Widget Corp.

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Message 50 of 137

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@jimc91 wrote:

Good one @rk9152, your business model has exposed this board... not many executives here, ya think?

 

Good job!

Hardly .... You need not be an "executive" to realize that a business model based on an unlikely assumption actually "exposes" an amateur as its creator!


 It is hard to determine what that means beyond a slam at jim but,

No slam at jim .... rather a fact regarding a business model based on an unlikely assumption ....as was clearly stated and NOT as you convoluted.

 

bottom line - do you like the end result of the Acme Widget Corp. as proposed? If so, how do you see it coming about?

No .... "bottom line" is that your made up widget business model falls apart if your assumption is wrong.


 Got it - you'd rather not engage in discussion about workers' owned businesses.


No .... you didn't "get it" as you continue to evade the fact that if your assumption is wrong, your business model falls apart.

Instead, you introduced an argument that I never advanced ... the every definition of a straw man argument!

DUMP TRUMP AND DITCH MITCH TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!
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