WATCH NOW: Iowa presidential candidate forum from Council Bluffs. Appearing: Montana Gov. Steve Bullock, South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders. 

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Valued Social Butterfly
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Re: Abortion

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Message 31 of 106


@Indianrock wrote:

As far as an abortion being solely the woman's decision, it reminds me of an idea that came up in a philosophy class.    A $1000 bill was defined as being a piece of legal tender, that was present now in my wallet.  So, we defined a $1,000 bill in that way, but, surprise, when we opened our wallets, it wasn't there.

 

I get that men are often bums, fathering children and taking no responsibility.  Much needs to be done to correct that as we've discussed.   Today, abortion is legal and my goal isn't to change that but to minimize the need for it in positive ways.  There are forces at work who want to make abortion illegal again.  Part of the problem there is pushing one group's idea of morality on others, but we do that all the time via the ballot box.   The other part of the problem is "minimal thinking" where the push is just to do  "thing A,"   when A really should also require  B, C and D  ( making abortion A illegal requires additional legal steps to force male responsibility, require tax support for child care, education and adoption, to name a few ).


Seriously weird philosophy class - sounds like the existentialist version of "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one. (M. Twain)

 

It's the Republicans total abrogation of their moral responsibility for the children their policies force on those who do not want them that really shows they have no real interest in the welfare of the fetus - as soon as it's out of the mother and breathing, it's on its own.

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Valued Social Butterfly
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Re: Abortion

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Message 32 of 106

Terminating a pregnancy is a medical procedure, not a religious act. It should only involve those necessary for the procedure - the woman and her doctor - no Fundie Fanatics required, nor is a law putting the Fundies ideas ahead of those of the woman.

 

As to paying for the medical procedure, it's legal, it's a medical service, and without it, the woman and her family are being "fined" $14,000/year for the next 18 years without ever having committed a crime.

 

If Fundies insist THEIR money cannot be used for things THEY object to, can we get the same thinking for pacifists and the DOD budget? If not, perhaps we need to arrange so Fundies cannot make that decision which exacts a huge penalty on women who have broken no law. November 2018 is a great place to begin.

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Re: Abortion

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Message 33 of 106

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@MIseker wrote:


I have agreed with it being a womens issue to the point of stating only women should have a say int womens reproductive health. thats not every mans stance, but there are few here saying abortion shouldnt happen at all, and for the gist of it you have overwhelming support on the right to choose. hey, we are all going to vote alike on the core issue. BUT.. your admonissions to the men here are beginning to soud like you aresaying SHUT UP.

 

They sure do, MI, as well as, "I couldn't care LESS about what men think".  But I'll come running to you if I decide to keep the baby and expect our share of YOUR money.  Rather odd sitaution she has created for women.


Yea Centrist,  that is also one of our choices.  LOL

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Re: Abortion

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Message 34 of 106

@MIseker wrote:


I have agreed with it being a womens issue to the point of stating only women should have a say int womens reproductive health. thats not every mans stance, but there are few here saying abortion shouldnt happen at all, and for the gist of it you have overwhelming support on the right to choose. hey, we are all going to vote alike on the core issue. BUT.. your admonissions to the men here are beginning to soud like you aresaying SHUT UP.

 

They sure do, MI, as well as, "I couldn't care LESS about what men think".  But I'll come running to you if I decide to keep the baby and expect our share of YOUR money.  Rather odd sitaution she has created for women.


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Message 35 of 106

I suppose the definition of "last resort" should be addressed.  I would think the anti-abortion crowd would see carrying the embryo to term and having a child to be the  logical step.  If you are pregnant, you either have the embryo removed before it can become a fetus or don't.  I don't understand which is the "last resort". 

 

Unfortunately, that is a huge set of consequences beyond those associated with a surgical (or pill now) which is the medical equivalent of having a benign mole removed. 

 

 

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Re: Abortion

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Message 36 of 106

@Indianrock wrote:

It's been a good discussion with a lot of give and take.  Sometimes this forum results in posts which don't even address the original post ( personal agenda, axe to grind, etc ) but that's pretty common.

 

I think the word compromise should be used more.  Unless you live under a King or dictator, nobody gets everything they want.  I believe the founders of the United States intended for it to be difficult to make changes and created the 3 branches of government to "check" eachother.   Quite often they negotiated and compromised, realizing that nobody gets 100% of what they want, but still achieving some results for the common good.

 

Unfortunately we're now seeing a lot of "my way or the highway," and " if you don't agree with me 100% you're the enemy or of the devil."

 


Ihave agreed abortion is a last resort. one way to cut down on abortions is free birth control.

 

as for me, i was adopted in 1956..my birth mother didnt want a kid fr whatever reason. SO my point of view is coming from a place of " I could have wound up on the end of a coat hanger". and yes i have discussed that long and deep with other adoptees..and all of us support legal abortion..because that would have been better for us than the coat hangar.

So it begins.
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Re: Abortion

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Message 37 of 106

@Indianrock wrote:


Most people have a natural inclincation to eat food, so they work and save and don't spend all their money on booze or Ferrari's.  Thus they have money left over for food.   Avoiding sex because you're too young, too poor or already have ten children doesn't seem like it would be all that difficult unless you're too immature ( say under 16 ) to consider the consequences, too stupid ( 10% of society?) or you just think I can always get an abortion.  I can excuse the immature and stupid, but not that last category anymore than I can excuse drunk drivers.

 

Seems like "civilization" is protecting people too much from consequences.  When I was ten and poked the big bully on the block with a stick, I got a bloody nose and learned something.  Are we no longer learning such lessons?


You would think that is the case. You would also think that people would not have sex outside their marriages or with people they hardly know.  You would think people would use contraceptives every time they had sex.  You would think that people would change the oil in their cars and go to the dentist regularly. You would think people would eat healthy and exercise every day. 

 

You would think we would learn to stop saying "you would think" and live in the real world without fantasy solutions but I find myself in there pretending all the same. 

 

No. People are not going to abstain from sex and women are going to keep gettng pregnant when they do not wish to be. Sorry. 

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Re: Abortion

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Message 38 of 106

@Indianrock wrote:

@rker321 wrote:

@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


As I have told you before, I do respect your views but don't agree with them. But, do you read history sometimes?

Go back to places like ancient Greece. and take a look at what  happened in those time. Ancient Rome and other societies way before Christianity even existed.
Perhaps you will find that termination of pregancies have always existed. nothing new. and there have been multitudes of manners in which women terminated their preganancies.
So, if abortions have been condemned after the birth of Christianity, isn't that sort of a modern  notion?


The romans and others also burned people at the stake and threw them to the lions, doesn't mean it was a good way to run society.  Abortion should be a last resort, not an alternative to common sense.


I havent seen anyone dispute abortion being a last resort

 

So it begins.
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Re: Abortion

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Message 39 of 106

@rker321 wrote:

You guys come up with the darnest things 
Females that want to terminate a pregnancy have a complete different point of view than what I have seen posted here.
Any female that wants a termination does so for inumerable amout of reasons. some very subjective and others objective.
Ex.  the father, dissaperared.
Cannot actually take off work or the option is not as they are willing to accept.
Money.
It was not expected and feel that they cannot handle a pregancy at this time in their lives.
Health reasons.
And I am sure that if I think a little I can come up with a lot more reasons as to why  many of those terminations occur.
Of course, there is always the fact that does exist in some women. called neglect.
So you can all continue to argue about this issue. all you want. but in the end. it will be us, that will deal with this subject. and will make the decission that we feel fits our needs.

 


I have agreed with it being a womens issue to the point of stating only women should have a say int womens reproductive health. thats not every mans stance, but there are few here saying abortion shouldnt happen at all, and for the gist of it you have overwhelming support on the right to choose. hey, we are all going to vote alike on the core issue. BUT.. your admonissions to the men here are beginning to soud like you aresaying SHUT UP.

 

So it begins.
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Message 40 of 106

@Indianrock wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


Shame on you, IndianRock!  Infringing on a woman's right to get knocked-up.... <smirk>

 

Do you really believe that's the intent?  Or are you aware enough to know it's usually an unintentional consequence?  I know quite a few "Christians" that still rely on the rhythm method.


Rhythm method was an old Catholic thing.  I've been a Christian, not all that conservative, but attending Bible-teaching churches for over 30 years and haven't heard anyone discourage birth control, at all.  zip


Aren't Catholics "Christians"?  Most I know sure think they are.

 

It is good that Evangelicals and Catholics have lively discussions on the interpretation of Scripture. Evangelicals do that with each other all the time. That's why there are so many different denominations. However, any organization that says "Catholics are not Christians," is ignoring the history of Christianity. The name Christian predates all Protestant and Evangelical Churches by over a millennium. Many Evangelicals who think that Catholics are not Christian may be surprised to learn they accept the authority of several Catholic councils every time they pick up their Bible. The Bible didn't fall out of the sky, spiral bound with an NIV sticker on it. It has a rich Catholic history.

Any time spent studying the Church Fathers will make it abundantly clear that early Christian beliefs were Catholic. Their complete unity over the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is only one example.

 

http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/are_catholics_christian.php

 

btw....the rhythm method IS considered a birth control method.  Just saying.....

 

"People have wanted and needed to prevent pregnancy for thousands of years. Before the birth control pill and condoms came along, couples had to figure out their fertile days each month, and avoid sex during those times. Today, that's known as periodic abstinence, also called the rhythm method."

 

Birth Control


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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