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Abortion

Many of my Christian conservative friends seem to vote primarily on a candidate's stand on this issue, as if a single representative or even President can snap their fingers and make a change in abortion law.   In a recent conversation, one said that there are a large number of abortion-related deaths ( of women) even with legal abortions, which might tend to downplay the risks of overturning Roe v Wade and returning to the era of illegal abortions.

 

I'm wondering what the truth is here.  I hate the idea of abortion and think everything possible should be done to avoid it, including the willingness to have more taxes placed on me to subsidize adoption and things like child-care for women contemplating an abortion.   But I'm really wondering what would things be like if Roe v Wade were overturned.  Surely abortions would continue, just illegally, and we've all heard the horror stories of "back-alley" abortions.

 

 

Burnhaven
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@Indianrock wrote:

It's been a good discussion with a lot of give and take.  Sometimes this forum results in posts which don't even address the original post ( personal agenda, axe to grind, etc ) but that's pretty common.

 

I think the word compromise should be used more.  Unless you live under a King or dictator, nobody gets everything they want.  I believe the founders of the United States intended for it to be difficult to make changes and created the 3 branches of government to "check" eachother.   Quite often they negotiated and compromised, realizing that nobody gets 100% of what they want, but still achieving some results for the common good.

 

Unfortunately we're now seeing a lot of "my way or the highway," and " if you don't agree with me 100% you're the enemy or of the devil."

 



@Indianrock wrote:

It's been a good discussion with a lot of give and take.  Sometimes this forum results in posts which don't even address the original post ( personal agenda, axe to grind, etc ) but that's pretty common.

 

I think the word compromise should be used more.  Unless you live under a King or dictator, nobody gets everything they want.  I believe the founders of the United States intended for it to be difficult to make changes and created the 3 branches of government to "check" eachother.   Quite often they negotiated and compromised, realizing that nobody gets 100% of what they want, but still achieving some results for the common good.

 

Unfortunately we're now seeing a lot of "my way or the highway," and " if you don't agree with me 100% you're the enemy or of the devil."

 



@Indianrock wrote:

It's been a good discussion with a lot of give and take.  Sometimes this forum results in posts which don't even address the original post ( personal agenda, axe to grind, etc ) but that's pretty common.

 

I think the word compromise should be used more.  Unless you live under a King or dictator, nobody gets everything they want.  I believe the founders of the United States intended for it to be difficult to make changes and created the 3 branches of government to "check" eachother.   Quite often they negotiated and compromised, realizing that nobody gets 100% of what they want, but still achieving some results for the common good.

 

Unfortunately we're now seeing a lot of "my way or the highway," and " if you don't agree with me 100% you're the enemy or of the devil."

 


Sorry that you think that is may way or the highway. by the way, that is what I think about your posts.
I have said that I respect your views. do not try to change mine.  So, what is it going to be.?
Or are you here with the mission of "save the world"  from all of those women that "kill babies"?
Do yourself a favor, there are other very interesting thread that probably suit you more and a lot more interesting You are sure welcome in any of them.

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Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not

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@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


Only if we want to talk about fairy wishes and magic hormone suppression potions.  Since the primary purpose of any organism is to exist and to procreate, I do not think there ever has been a successful adoption of "just say no" for more than a few members of society. 

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@Richva wrote:

@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


Only if we want to talk about fairy wishes and magic hormone suppression potions.  Since the primary purpose of any organism is to exist and to procreate, I do not think there ever has been a successful adoption of "just say no" for more than a few members of society. 


Most people have a natural inclincation to eat food, so they work and save and don't spend all their money on booze or Ferrari's.  Thus they have money left over for food.   Avoiding sex because you're too young, too poor or already have ten children doesn't seem like it would be all that difficult unless you're too immature ( say under 16 ) to consider the consequences, too stupid ( 10% of society?) or you just think I can always get an abortion.  I can excuse the immature and stupid, but not that last category anymore than I can excuse drunk drivers.

 

Seems like "civilization" is protecting people too much from consequences.  When I was ten and poked the big bully on the block with a stick, I got a bloody nose and learned something.  Are we no longer learning such lessons?

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@Indianrock wrote:


Most people have a natural inclincation to eat food, so they work and save and don't spend all their money on booze or Ferrari's.  Thus they have money left over for food.   Avoiding sex because you're too young, too poor or already have ten children doesn't seem like it would be all that difficult unless you're too immature ( say under 16 ) to consider the consequences, too stupid ( 10% of society?) or you just think I can always get an abortion.  I can excuse the immature and stupid, but not that last category anymore than I can excuse drunk drivers.

 

Seems like "civilization" is protecting people too much from consequences.  When I was ten and poked the big bully on the block with a stick, I got a bloody nose and learned something.  Are we no longer learning such lessons?


You would think that is the case. You would also think that people would not have sex outside their marriages or with people they hardly know.  You would think people would use contraceptives every time they had sex.  You would think that people would change the oil in their cars and go to the dentist regularly. You would think people would eat healthy and exercise every day. 

 

You would think we would learn to stop saying "you would think" and live in the real world without fantasy solutions but I find myself in there pretending all the same. 

 

No. People are not going to abstain from sex and women are going to keep gettng pregnant when they do not wish to be. Sorry. 

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@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


As I have told you before, I do respect your views but don't agree with them. But, do you read history sometimes?

Go back to places like ancient Greece. and take a look at what  happened in those time. Ancient Rome and other societies way before Christianity even existed.
Perhaps you will find that termination of pregancies have always existed. nothing new. and there have been multitudes of manners in which women terminated their preganancies.
So, if abortions have been condemned after the birth of Christianity, isn't that sort of a modern  notion?

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@Roxanna35 wrote:

@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


As I have told you before, I do respect your views but don't agree with them. But, do you read history sometimes?

Go back to places like ancient Greece. and take a look at what  happened in those time. Ancient Rome and other societies way before Christianity even existed.
Perhaps you will find that termination of pregancies have always existed. nothing new. and there have been multitudes of manners in which women terminated their preganancies.
So, if abortions have been condemned after the birth of Christianity, isn't that sort of a modern  notion?


The romans and others also burned people at the stake and threw them to the lions, doesn't mean it was a good way to run society.  Abortion should be a last resort, not an alternative to common sense.

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@Indianrock wrote:

@Roxanna35 wrote:

@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


As I have told you before, I do respect your views but don't agree with them. But, do you read history sometimes?

Go back to places like ancient Greece. and take a look at what  happened in those time. Ancient Rome and other societies way before Christianity even existed.
Perhaps you will find that termination of pregancies have always existed. nothing new. and there have been multitudes of manners in which women terminated their preganancies.
So, if abortions have been condemned after the birth of Christianity, isn't that sort of a modern  notion?


The romans and others also burned people at the stake and threw them to the lions, doesn't mean it was a good way to run society.  Abortion should be a last resort, not an alternative to common sense.


I havent seen anyone dispute abortion being a last resort

 

So it begins.
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@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


Shame on you, IndianRock!  Infringing on a woman's right to get knocked-up.... <smirk>

 

Do you really believe that's the intent?  Or are you aware enough to know it's usually an unintentional consequence?  I know quite a few "Christians" that still rely on the rhythm method.


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
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@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


Shame on you, IndianRock!  Infringing on a woman's right to get knocked-up.... <smirk>

 

Do you really believe that's the intent?  Or are you aware enough to know it's usually an unintentional consequence?  I know quite a few "Christians" that still rely on the rhythm method.


Rhythm method was an old Catholic thing.  I've been a Christian, not all that conservative, but attending Bible-teaching churches for over 30 years and haven't heard anyone discourage birth control, at all.  zip

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@Indianrock wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


Shame on you, IndianRock!  Infringing on a woman's right to get knocked-up.... <smirk>

 

Do you really believe that's the intent?  Or are you aware enough to know it's usually an unintentional consequence?  I know quite a few "Christians" that still rely on the rhythm method.


Rhythm method was an old Catholic thing.  I've been a Christian, not all that conservative, but attending Bible-teaching churches for over 30 years and haven't heard anyone discourage birth control, at all.  zip


Aren't Catholics "Christians"?  Most I know sure think they are.

 

It is good that Evangelicals and Catholics have lively discussions on the interpretation of Scripture. Evangelicals do that with each other all the time. That's why there are so many different denominations. However, any organization that says "Catholics are not Christians," is ignoring the history of Christianity. The name Christian predates all Protestant and Evangelical Churches by over a millennium. Many Evangelicals who think that Catholics are not Christian may be surprised to learn they accept the authority of several Catholic councils every time they pick up their Bible. The Bible didn't fall out of the sky, spiral bound with an NIV sticker on it. It has a rich Catholic history.

Any time spent studying the Church Fathers will make it abundantly clear that early Christian beliefs were Catholic. Their complete unity over the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is only one example.

 

http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/are_catholics_christian.php

 

btw....the rhythm method IS considered a birth control method.  Just saying.....

 

"People have wanted and needed to prevent pregnancy for thousands of years. Before the birth control pill and condoms came along, couples had to figure out their fertile days each month, and avoid sex during those times. Today, that's known as periodic abstinence, also called the rhythm method."

 

Birth Control


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
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@Indianrock wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


Shame on you, IndianRock!  Infringing on a woman's right to get knocked-up.... <smirk>

 

Do you really believe that's the intent?  Or are you aware enough to know it's usually an unintentional consequence?  I know quite a few "Christians" that still rely on the rhythm method.


Rhythm method was an old Catholic thing.  I've been a Christian, not all that conservative, but attending Bible-teaching churches for over 30 years and haven't heard anyone discourage birth control, at all.  zip

Of course the rhythim pethod don't work that is why most Catholics don't even bother with it. and yes Catholics do discourage birth control pills which as we know is not followed by many.
By the way, in case you didn't know. even with birth control pills and other methods of birth control  pregancies do occurr.  My middle daughter  is alive and well, and it was quite an unexpected pregnancy.
So, I do take issue, when anyone  starts speaking about the Bible. and trying to convince others regarding an issue. that like I have stated. not only is a female issue, but is an issue, that lies within the conscience of the female individual.

So, in the same manner that I respect your views, please do respect mine and stop trying to convince me or anyone that believes that it is  not a choice issue, 

So go and attend  your Bible class and enjoy it.


 

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@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


Shame on you, IndianRock!  Infringing on a woman's right to get knocked-up.... <smirk>

 

Do you really believe that's the intent?  Or are you aware enough to know it's usually an unintentional consequence?  I know quite a few "Christians" that still rely on the rhythm method.


How many - if any - current CCs approve of one of their flock - by use of a condom for instance - committing the "Sin of Onan" as a method of contraception?

 

What of herbal methods of contraception and abortifacients that predate the existence of the bible?

 

 

 

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I used to think abortion was something to be avoided but then I realized that, since  it is not a human fetus until 9 weeks aborting the embryo is just losing cells. 

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"not a human until 9 weeks" is an opinion.  Not the only one on the subject.  Ultimately all of these questions are decided at the ballot box -- like it or not.      Some might think having a prison sentence for murder interferes with their personal beliefs, but it is the law of the land.  One can always move elsewhere.

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@Indianrock wrote:

"not a human until 9 weeks" is an opinion.  Not the only one on the subject.  Ultimately all of these questions are decided at the ballot box -- like it or not.      Some might think having a prison sentence for murder interferes with their personal beliefs, but it is the law of the land.  One can always move elsewhere.


We have your opinions, my opinions, and then there is that darn science stuff. Point 12, the quickening happens around week 14.  I guess science trumps both our opinions but most laws set the limit for an abortion at week 9.  

 

I like that moving elsewhere thing.  Perhaps we could get gun owners to move to another country?  After all, 756 children were killed by guns in 2015 while zero children were killed by abortions. 

 

http://blogs.plos.org/dnascience/2013/10/03/when-does-a-human-life-begins-17-timepoints/

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99% of the time I'm on the side of science, but probably not in this case.  Is science some magical force that never makes a mistake and never retracts/corrects previously stated "facts,"   no.

 

In any event my goal with this post was to find answers to the notion that there are more women dying from abortions now than before Roe v. Wade  --- and the revelation that abortion deaths were labeled as something else prior to 1973 seems to satisfy that.

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@Indianrock wrote:

99% of the time I'm on the side of science, but probably not in this case.  Is science some magical force that never makes a mistake and never retracts/corrects previously stated "facts,"   no.

 

In any event my goal with this post was to find answers to the notion that there are more women dying from abortions now than before Roe v. Wade  --- and the revelation that abortion deaths were labeled as something else prior to 1973 seems to satisfy that.


Science is simply the observation and measurement of the universe. Magic is when you assume observation and measurement must be wrong in a specific case because it interferes with your narrative.  Since all observations and measurements have turned up zero evidence supporting the development of an embryo into a viable human prior to the 14 week mark, abortions at 9 weeks seems a sensible cutoff point. 

 

You ask if there have been more (annual?) deaths from abortions after 1972 than before. In 1998 and 1999 (the most recent years for which data are available), 14 women died as a result of c.... Since abortion statistics were not kept prior to 1972 because they were illegal, we can never know for sure but I would assume it to be higher than 14 in any particular year. 

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You guys come up with the darnest things 
Females that want to terminate a pregnancy have a complete different point of view than what I have seen posted here.
Any female that wants a termination does so for inumerable amout of reasons. some very subjective and others objective.
Ex.  the father, dissaperared.
Cannot actually take off work or the option is not as they are willing to accept.
Money.
It was not expected and feel that they cannot handle a pregancy at this time in their lives.
Health reasons.
And I am sure that if I think a little I can come up with a lot more reasons as to why  many of those terminations occur.
Of course, there is always the fact that does exist in some women. called neglect.
So you can all continue to argue about this issue. all you want. but in the end. it will be us, that will deal with this subject. and will make the decission that we feel fits our needs.

 

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@Roxanna35 wrote:

You guys come up with the darnest things 
Females that want to terminate a pregnancy have a complete different point of view than what I have seen posted here.
Any female that wants a termination does so for inumerable amout of reasons. some very subjective and others objective.
Ex.  the father, dissaperared.
Cannot actually take off work or the option is not as they are willing to accept.
Money.
It was not expected and feel that they cannot handle a pregancy at this time in their lives.
Health reasons.
And I am sure that if I think a little I can come up with a lot more reasons as to why  many of those terminations occur.
Of course, there is always the fact that does exist in some women. called neglect.
So you can all continue to argue about this issue. all you want. but in the end. it will be us, that will deal with this subject. and will make the decission that we feel fits our needs.

 


I have agreed with it being a womens issue to the point of stating only women should have a say int womens reproductive health. thats not every mans stance, but there are few here saying abortion shouldnt happen at all, and for the gist of it you have overwhelming support on the right to choose. hey, we are all going to vote alike on the core issue. BUT.. your admonissions to the men here are beginning to soud like you aresaying SHUT UP.

 

So it begins.
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@MIseker wrote:


I have agreed with it being a womens issue to the point of stating only women should have a say int womens reproductive health. thats not every mans stance, but there are few here saying abortion shouldnt happen at all, and for the gist of it you have overwhelming support on the right to choose. hey, we are all going to vote alike on the core issue. BUT.. your admonissions to the men here are beginning to soud like you aresaying SHUT UP.

 

They sure do, MI, as well as, "I couldn't care LESS about what men think".  But I'll come running to you if I decide to keep the baby and expect our share of YOUR money.  Rather odd sitaution she has created for women.


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@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@MIseker wrote:


I have agreed with it being a womens issue to the point of stating only women should have a say int womens reproductive health. thats not every mans stance, but there are few here saying abortion shouldnt happen at all, and for the gist of it you have overwhelming support on the right to choose. hey, we are all going to vote alike on the core issue. BUT.. your admonissions to the men here are beginning to soud like you aresaying SHUT UP.

 

They sure do, MI, as well as, "I couldn't care LESS about what men think".  But I'll come running to you if I decide to keep the baby and expect our share of YOUR money.  Rather odd sitaution she has created for women.


Yea Centrist,  that is also one of our choices.  LOL

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@Roxanna35 wrote:

You guys come up with the darnest things Of course....that's why we're guys!  And that's why you divorced me.....remember?  Smiley Wink


Females that want to terminate a pregnancy ....which is AFTER they've made a decision....have a complete different point of view than what I have seen posted here.  
Any female that wants a termination does so for inumerable amout of reasons. some very subjective and others objective.  Though you implied earlier it was for their health/safety.  Your posts aren't consistent.


Ex.  the father, dissaperared. Then, the views of the man wouldn't matter, would they?


Cannot actually take off work or the option is not as they are willing to accept.  I'm not sure what that means....

 

Money.
It was not expected and feel that they cannot handle a pregancy at this time in their lives.  Which is an awesome opportunity to consider adoption.


Health reasons.Which are for the most point, not a point of contention with most pro-lifers....

 

And I am sure that if I think a little I can come up with a lot more reasons as to why  many of those terminations occur.  Why not think a little" as you say and share it with forum readers....


Of course, there is always the fact that does exist in some women. called neglect.  Who's neglecting who?


So you can all continue to argue about this issue. all you want. well that sure is nice to know.  But if you look at the posts here, the guys aren't "arguing"....just saying.   but in the end. it will be us, that will deal with this subject. and will make the decission that we feel fits our needs.  Arrogance much?


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
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Centrist. for divorced individuals  we really bicker a lot. 
But.really.  On this subject. I am right and you are wong. 
so till another day and another subject.

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@Roxanna35 wrote:

Centrist. for  divorced individuals  we really bicker a lot. Well, you might recall, that's why I gave in and let you keep the pool.


On this subject. I am right and you are wong. There's that "A-word" again....


so till another day and another subject.  Be free...


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@Indianrock wrote:

99% of the time I'm on the side of science, but probably not in this case.  Is science some magical force that never makes a mistake and never retracts/corrects previously stated "facts,"   no.

 

Something worth considering, IMO.....when science is proven wrong, it corrects itself.  When religion is proven to be wrong, it goes on being wrong....


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A rather broad brush there.   But I would no more try to defend every act and statement ever made by every religion than I would every act or statement made by science.   

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@Indianrock wrote:

A rather broad brush there.   But I would no more try to defend every act and statement ever made by every religion than I would every act or statement made by science.   


Randy...it would sure be helpful to readers if you clicked on the quote button before responding so others knew which post you were responding to.  Thanks for considering it.


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@Indianrock wrote:

A rather broad brush there.   But I would no more try to defend every act and statement ever made by every religion than I would every act or statement made by science.   


If it is a matter of religion beliefs. then, in that case, how come abortinons have been in our history since probably a woman that didn't want to  be pregnant decided to terminate that pregnancy. 
I can research that, but I do believe that even before Christianity was a religion abortirons already existed.

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@Indianrock wrote:

"not a human until 9 weeks" is an opinion.  As is the other view that life begins at conception.  Not the only one on the subject.  Ultimately all of these questions are decided at the ballot box -- like it or not.  Yep.  But note, that 57% of Americans support abortion being legal in all, or most all cases.

 

http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/

 

Some might think having a prison sentence for murder interferes with their personal beliefs, I doubt it.

 

but it is he law of the land.  One can always move elsewhere.  So could "pro-lifers", right?


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