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Re: Abortion

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Message 61 of 106

@Centristsin2010 wrote:


The fact that any male that thinks that he has the power over any female in this kind of decission is extremely arrogant.  You confuse "a say" with "power over".....and that's kinda sad.

 

And  yes it is sad to see any male that thinks that the issue of a termination is an issue in which he has a say so.

And yes it is arrogance, because in the end it will be the woman that carries over her shoulder that decission. 


 

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Re: Abortion

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Message 62 of 106

Abortion should be legal, safe and infrequent.

 

The anti-woman movement wants NONE of that, and if they don't, they need to change their policy because what they'll get is a return to the illegal, deadly and often that had 18% of pregnancies ending in abortion with hundreds of mothers dying along with the fetus.

 

Anyone dumb enough to insist denying birth control is a "holy project" that God wants them to pursue is an argument for retroactive abortion to clear the gene pool of dangerously deranged DNA.

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Re: Abortion

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Message 63 of 106

@rker321 wrote:

On the issue of the part that a man's play in the decission of a female terminating a pregnancy.

Take this scenario.
Female.  I am pregnant  and I am going to terminated this pregnancy/
Male.  Oh.  you are not. 
Female  Yes  I am.

If the arrogance of males  is blind to the fact that they have no power as to the decission making on this subject.  I really don't know.  Arrogance?  Hardly.  Is it arrogance if a man wants to have an abortion and the woman wants to have the baby and insists he pay 1/2 of all costs?  Is she "arrogant"?

 

More importantly, legally you are right.  The courts have said the man has no legal rights.  I'm stuck on the fairness issue....but again, legally I have no standing.  So, rker....you are correct.


The outcome of the above scenario  will be that the female will terminate her pregnancy as desired.  and that the male is incapable of stopping her. unless he uses force or perhaps any legal options.And, after checking, I've learned he has none.  


The fact that any male that thinks that he has the power over any female in this kind of decission is extremely arrogant.  You confuse "a say" with "power over".....and that's kinda sad.


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Re: Abortion

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Message 64 of 106

As far as an abortion being solely the woman's decision, it reminds me of an idea that came up in a philosophy class.    A $1000 bill was defined as being a piece of legal tender, that was present now in my wallet.  So, we defined a $1,000 bill in that way, but, surprise, when we opened our wallets, it wasn't there.

 

I get that men are often bums, fathering children and taking no responsibility.  Much needs to be done to correct that as we've discussed.   Today, abortion is legal and my goal isn't to change that but to minimize the need for it in positive ways.  There are forces at work who want to make abortion illegal again.  Part of the problem there is pushing one group's idea of morality on others, but we do that all the time via the ballot box.   The other part of the problem is "minimal thinking" where the push is just to do  "thing A,"   when A really should also require  B, C and D  ( making abortion A illegal requires additional legal steps to force male responsibility, require tax support for child care, education and adoption, to name a few ).

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Re: Abortion

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Message 65 of 106

@Indianrock wrote:

99% of the time I'm on the side of science, but probably not in this case.  Is science some magical force that never makes a mistake and never retracts/corrects previously stated "facts,"   no.

 

Something worth considering, IMO.....when science is proven wrong, it corrects itself.  When religion is proven to be wrong, it goes on being wrong....


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Re: Abortion

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Message 66 of 106

99% of the time I'm on the side of science, but probably not in this case.  Is science some magical force that never makes a mistake and never retracts/corrects previously stated "facts,"   no.

 

In any event my goal with this post was to find answers to the notion that there are more women dying from abortions now than before Roe v. Wade  --- and the revelation that abortion deaths were labeled as something else prior to 1973 seems to satisfy that.

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Re: Abortion

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Message 67 of 106

On the issue of the part that a man's play in the decission of a female terminating a pregnancy.

Take this scenario.
Female.  I am pregnant  and I am going to terminated this pregnancy/
Male.  Oh.  you are not. 
Female  Yes  I am.

If the arrogance of males  is blind to the fact that they have no power as to the decission making on this subject.  I really don't know.
The outcome of the above scenario  will be that the female will terminate her pregnancy as desired.  and that the male is incapable of stopping her. unless he uses force or perhaps any legal options.
The fact that any male that thinks that he has the power over any female in this kind of decission is extremely arrogant.
And doesn't understand the word CHOICE  The choice lies on the female decission and no male has that choice. therefore it is a  female issue. 

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Re: Abortion

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Message 68 of 106

@Indianrock wrote:

"not a human until 9 weeks" is an opinion.  Not the only one on the subject.  Ultimately all of these questions are decided at the ballot box -- like it or not.      Some might think having a prison sentence for murder interferes with their personal beliefs, but it is the law of the land.  One can always move elsewhere.


We have your opinions, my opinions, and then there is that darn science stuff. Point 12, the quickening happens around week 14.  I guess science trumps both our opinions but most laws set the limit for an abortion at week 9.  

 

I like that moving elsewhere thing.  Perhaps we could get gun owners to move to another country?  After all, 756 children were killed by guns in 2015 while zero children were killed by abortions. 

 

http://blogs.plos.org/dnascience/2013/10/03/when-does-a-human-life-begins-17-timepoints/

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Re: Abortion

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Message 69 of 106

@Indianrock wrote:

"not a human until 9 weeks" is an opinion.  As is the other view that life begins at conception.  Not the only one on the subject.  Ultimately all of these questions are decided at the ballot box -- like it or not.  Yep.  But note, that 57% of Americans support abortion being legal in all, or most all cases.

 

http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/

 

Some might think having a prison sentence for murder interferes with their personal beliefs, I doubt it.

 

but it is he law of the land.  One can always move elsewhere.  So could "pro-lifers", right?


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Re: Abortion

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Message 70 of 106


@Indianrock wrote:

I think the statement that abortion deaths prior to Roe v. Wade weren't reported as abortion goes a long way towards explaining some misconceptions that deaths from abortions are higher now than when abortion was illegal.

 

As far as it being only a woman's decision:   the problem is many people view abortion as taking a life.  For them, it isn't much different than a father deciding to kill his 10-year-old son.   From that perspective, the woman's "right to choose" was forfeited when she got pregnant of her own free will  ( I"m intentionally leaving out those cases of rape/incest where IT WAS NOT OF HER ON FREE WILL ).         HOWEVER, society should go to great lengths to make the male involved live up to his obligations ----   castration and working in prison at the end of a whip if necessary.


I'd go a touch further and tap the pay of the father for the average expense of raising a child until the kid was 18, and if he can't earn enough, he gets a free involuntary vasectomy, but still allow abortions anytime the mother doesn't want to carry the fetus to term.That invlountary snip would happen as soon as the father cannot support the kids he fathers outside marriage.

 

Until it's viable without life support outside the mothers body, it's 100% her body that's involved, and 100% her decision on what happens.

 

As to it being a "life" that should be preserved, if someone wants to "adopt" a 1kg fetus, they should be allowed to provided they first provide the hospital $1,000,000 as a down payment on the potential costs of keeping the (now) child alive outside the womb until they can take him/her home. Getting really tired of all the freeloading Republicans think we should allow in our health care system.

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