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Abortion

Many of my Christian conservative friends seem to vote primarily on a candidate's stand on this issue, as if a single representative or even President can snap their fingers and make a change in abortion law.   In a recent conversation, one said that there are a large number of abortion-related deaths ( of women) even with legal abortions, which might tend to downplay the risks of overturning Roe v Wade and returning to the era of illegal abortions.

 

I'm wondering what the truth is here.  I hate the idea of abortion and think everything possible should be done to avoid it, including the willingness to have more taxes placed on me to subsidize adoption and things like child-care for women contemplating an abortion.   But I'm really wondering what would things be like if Roe v Wade were overturned.  Surely abortions would continue, just illegally, and we've all heard the horror stories of "back-alley" abortions.

 

 

Burnhaven
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@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@Indianrock wrote:

Dare I mention the option of just not getting pregnant  ( when rape and incest were not an issue)?

 

Probably not


Shame on you, IndianRock!  Infringing on a woman's right to get knocked-up.... <smirk>

 

Do you really believe that's the intent?  Or are you aware enough to know it's usually an unintentional consequence?  I know quite a few "Christians" that still rely on the rhythm method.


How many - if any - current CCs approve of one of their flock - by use of a condom for instance - committing the "Sin of Onan" as a method of contraception?

 

What of herbal methods of contraception and abortifacients that predate the existence of the bible?

 

 

 

44>dolt45
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I used to think abortion was something to be avoided but then I realized that, since  it is not a human fetus until 9 weeks aborting the embryo is just losing cells. 

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"not a human until 9 weeks" is an opinion.  Not the only one on the subject.  Ultimately all of these questions are decided at the ballot box -- like it or not.      Some might think having a prison sentence for murder interferes with their personal beliefs, but it is the law of the land.  One can always move elsewhere.

Burnhaven
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@Indianrock wrote:

"not a human until 9 weeks" is an opinion.  Not the only one on the subject.  Ultimately all of these questions are decided at the ballot box -- like it or not.      Some might think having a prison sentence for murder interferes with their personal beliefs, but it is the law of the land.  One can always move elsewhere.


We have your opinions, my opinions, and then there is that darn science stuff. Point 12, the quickening happens around week 14.  I guess science trumps both our opinions but most laws set the limit for an abortion at week 9.  

 

I like that moving elsewhere thing.  Perhaps we could get gun owners to move to another country?  After all, 756 children were killed by guns in 2015 while zero children were killed by abortions. 

 

http://blogs.plos.org/dnascience/2013/10/03/when-does-a-human-life-begins-17-timepoints/

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99% of the time I'm on the side of science, but probably not in this case.  Is science some magical force that never makes a mistake and never retracts/corrects previously stated "facts,"   no.

 

In any event my goal with this post was to find answers to the notion that there are more women dying from abortions now than before Roe v. Wade  --- and the revelation that abortion deaths were labeled as something else prior to 1973 seems to satisfy that.

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@Indianrock wrote:

99% of the time I'm on the side of science, but probably not in this case.  Is science some magical force that never makes a mistake and never retracts/corrects previously stated "facts,"   no.

 

In any event my goal with this post was to find answers to the notion that there are more women dying from abortions now than before Roe v. Wade  --- and the revelation that abortion deaths were labeled as something else prior to 1973 seems to satisfy that.


Science is simply the observation and measurement of the universe. Magic is when you assume observation and measurement must be wrong in a specific case because it interferes with your narrative.  Since all observations and measurements have turned up zero evidence supporting the development of an embryo into a viable human prior to the 14 week mark, abortions at 9 weeks seems a sensible cutoff point. 

 

You ask if there have been more (annual?) deaths from abortions after 1972 than before. In 1998 and 1999 (the most recent years for which data are available), 14 women died as a result of c.... Since abortion statistics were not kept prior to 1972 because they were illegal, we can never know for sure but I would assume it to be higher than 14 in any particular year. 

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You guys come up with the darnest things 
Females that want to terminate a pregnancy have a complete different point of view than what I have seen posted here.
Any female that wants a termination does so for inumerable amout of reasons. some very subjective and others objective.
Ex.  the father, dissaperared.
Cannot actually take off work or the option is not as they are willing to accept.
Money.
It was not expected and feel that they cannot handle a pregancy at this time in their lives.
Health reasons.
And I am sure that if I think a little I can come up with a lot more reasons as to why  many of those terminations occur.
Of course, there is always the fact that does exist in some women. called neglect.
So you can all continue to argue about this issue. all you want. but in the end. it will be us, that will deal with this subject. and will make the decission that we feel fits our needs.

 

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@Roxanna35 wrote:

You guys come up with the darnest things 
Females that want to terminate a pregnancy have a complete different point of view than what I have seen posted here.
Any female that wants a termination does so for inumerable amout of reasons. some very subjective and others objective.
Ex.  the father, dissaperared.
Cannot actually take off work or the option is not as they are willing to accept.
Money.
It was not expected and feel that they cannot handle a pregancy at this time in their lives.
Health reasons.
And I am sure that if I think a little I can come up with a lot more reasons as to why  many of those terminations occur.
Of course, there is always the fact that does exist in some women. called neglect.
So you can all continue to argue about this issue. all you want. but in the end. it will be us, that will deal with this subject. and will make the decission that we feel fits our needs.

 


I have agreed with it being a womens issue to the point of stating only women should have a say int womens reproductive health. thats not every mans stance, but there are few here saying abortion shouldnt happen at all, and for the gist of it you have overwhelming support on the right to choose. hey, we are all going to vote alike on the core issue. BUT.. your admonissions to the men here are beginning to soud like you aresaying SHUT UP.

 

So it begins.
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@MIseker wrote:


I have agreed with it being a womens issue to the point of stating only women should have a say int womens reproductive health. thats not every mans stance, but there are few here saying abortion shouldnt happen at all, and for the gist of it you have overwhelming support on the right to choose. hey, we are all going to vote alike on the core issue. BUT.. your admonissions to the men here are beginning to soud like you aresaying SHUT UP.

 

They sure do, MI, as well as, "I couldn't care LESS about what men think".  But I'll come running to you if I decide to keep the baby and expect our share of YOUR money.  Rather odd sitaution she has created for women.


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
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@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@MIseker wrote:


I have agreed with it being a womens issue to the point of stating only women should have a say int womens reproductive health. thats not every mans stance, but there are few here saying abortion shouldnt happen at all, and for the gist of it you have overwhelming support on the right to choose. hey, we are all going to vote alike on the core issue. BUT.. your admonissions to the men here are beginning to soud like you aresaying SHUT UP.

 

They sure do, MI, as well as, "I couldn't care LESS about what men think".  But I'll come running to you if I decide to keep the baby and expect our share of YOUR money.  Rather odd sitaution she has created for women.


Yea Centrist,  that is also one of our choices.  LOL

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@Roxanna35 wrote:

You guys come up with the darnest things Of course....that's why we're guys!  And that's why you divorced me.....remember?  Smiley Wink


Females that want to terminate a pregnancy ....which is AFTER they've made a decision....have a complete different point of view than what I have seen posted here.  
Any female that wants a termination does so for inumerable amout of reasons. some very subjective and others objective.  Though you implied earlier it was for their health/safety.  Your posts aren't consistent.


Ex.  the father, dissaperared. Then, the views of the man wouldn't matter, would they?


Cannot actually take off work or the option is not as they are willing to accept.  I'm not sure what that means....

 

Money.
It was not expected and feel that they cannot handle a pregancy at this time in their lives.  Which is an awesome opportunity to consider adoption.


Health reasons.Which are for the most point, not a point of contention with most pro-lifers....

 

And I am sure that if I think a little I can come up with a lot more reasons as to why  many of those terminations occur.  Why not think a little" as you say and share it with forum readers....


Of course, there is always the fact that does exist in some women. called neglect.  Who's neglecting who?


So you can all continue to argue about this issue. all you want. well that sure is nice to know.  But if you look at the posts here, the guys aren't "arguing"....just saying.   but in the end. it will be us, that will deal with this subject. and will make the decission that we feel fits our needs.  Arrogance much?


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
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Centrist. for divorced individuals  we really bicker a lot. 
But.really.  On this subject. I am right and you are wong. 
so till another day and another subject.

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@Roxanna35 wrote:

Centrist. for  divorced individuals  we really bicker a lot. Well, you might recall, that's why I gave in and let you keep the pool.


On this subject. I am right and you are wong. There's that "A-word" again....


so till another day and another subject.  Be free...


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
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@Indianrock wrote:

99% of the time I'm on the side of science, but probably not in this case.  Is science some magical force that never makes a mistake and never retracts/corrects previously stated "facts,"   no.

 

Something worth considering, IMO.....when science is proven wrong, it corrects itself.  When religion is proven to be wrong, it goes on being wrong....


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A rather broad brush there.   But I would no more try to defend every act and statement ever made by every religion than I would every act or statement made by science.   

Burnhaven
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@Indianrock wrote:

A rather broad brush there.   But I would no more try to defend every act and statement ever made by every religion than I would every act or statement made by science.   


Randy...it would sure be helpful to readers if you clicked on the quote button before responding so others knew which post you were responding to.  Thanks for considering it.


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@Indianrock wrote:

A rather broad brush there.   But I would no more try to defend every act and statement ever made by every religion than I would every act or statement made by science.   


If it is a matter of religion beliefs. then, in that case, how come abortinons have been in our history since probably a woman that didn't want to  be pregnant decided to terminate that pregnancy. 
I can research that, but I do believe that even before Christianity was a religion abortirons already existed.

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@Indianrock wrote:

"not a human until 9 weeks" is an opinion.  As is the other view that life begins at conception.  Not the only one on the subject.  Ultimately all of these questions are decided at the ballot box -- like it or not.  Yep.  But note, that 57% of Americans support abortion being legal in all, or most all cases.

 

http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/

 

Some might think having a prison sentence for murder interferes with their personal beliefs, I doubt it.

 

but it is he law of the land.  One can always move elsewhere.  So could "pro-lifers", right?


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
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I think the statement that abortion deaths prior to Roe v. Wade weren't reported as abortion goes a long way towards explaining some misconceptions that deaths from abortions are higher now than when abortion was illegal.

 

As far as it being only a woman's decision:   the problem is many people view abortion as taking a life.  For them, it isn't much different than a father deciding to kill his 10-year-old son.   From that perspective, the woman's "right to choose" was forfeited when she got pregnant of her own free will  ( I"m intentionally leaving out those cases of rape/incest where IT WAS NOT OF HER ON FREE WILL ).         HOWEVER, society should go to great lengths to make the male involved live up to his obligations ----   castration and working in prison at the end of a whip if necessary.

Burnhaven
Honored Social Butterfly


@Indianrock wrote:

I think the statement that abortion deaths prior to Roe v. Wade weren't reported as abortion goes a long way towards explaining some misconceptions that deaths from abortions are higher now than when abortion was illegal.

 

As far as it being only a woman's decision:   the problem is many people view abortion as taking a life.  For them, it isn't much different than a father deciding to kill his 10-year-old son.   From that perspective, the woman's "right to choose" was forfeited when she got pregnant of her own free will  ( I"m intentionally leaving out those cases of rape/incest where IT WAS NOT OF HER ON FREE WILL ).         HOWEVER, society should go to great lengths to make the male involved live up to his obligations ----   castration and working in prison at the end of a whip if necessary.


I'd go a touch further and tap the pay of the father for the average expense of raising a child until the kid was 18, and if he can't earn enough, he gets a free involuntary vasectomy, but still allow abortions anytime the mother doesn't want to carry the fetus to term.That invlountary snip would happen as soon as the father cannot support the kids he fathers outside marriage.

 

Until it's viable without life support outside the mothers body, it's 100% her body that's involved, and 100% her decision on what happens.

 

As to it being a "life" that should be preserved, if someone wants to "adopt" a 1kg fetus, they should be allowed to provided they first provide the hospital $1,000,000 as a down payment on the potential costs of keeping the (now) child alive outside the womb until they can take him/her home. Getting really tired of all the freeloading Republicans think we should allow in our health care system.

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On the issue of the part that a man's play in the decission of a female terminating a pregnancy.

Take this scenario.
Female.  I am pregnant  and I am going to terminated this pregnancy/
Male.  Oh.  you are not. 
Female  Yes  I am.

If the arrogance of males  is blind to the fact that they have no power as to the decission making on this subject.  I really don't know.
The outcome of the above scenario  will be that the female will terminate her pregnancy as desired.  and that the male is incapable of stopping her. unless he uses force or perhaps any legal options.
The fact that any male that thinks that he has the power over any female in this kind of decission is extremely arrogant.
And doesn't understand the word CHOICE  The choice lies on the female decission and no male has that choice. therefore it is a  female issue. 

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