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Re: ‘Fat but Fit’? The Controversy Continues

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Message 21 of 61

Hey Ron, @RonMesnard screamed by to say wow! thanks for all this data. I have an all-day commitment so will have to digest this later. (My body's metabolism may be cranking right now, but ye olde noggin still likes to take its time. Smiley Happy)

 

Appreciate your generosity, loads!

 

Epster, off to conquer the hill of the day

 

 

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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Message 22 of 61

@Epster, I like you and that will not change if you think I am wrong.  I will try to educate you to my way of thinking for thiis area I believe to be expert in.  I have averaged 10 hrs research for the last 20 years.  My goal of a diabetic is to live a normal life span and not die a horrible slow death. By all bench marks I am doing just that.  I have had 2 medical professionals claim I was the healthiest long term diabetic they had ever seen. I don't have any symptoms I should have even at only 5 years of diabetes.  The other docs only say I am remarkable.   

 

Silly me does so by reducing risks.  I prioritise the risks with the most deadly at the top.  Then I figure out how to neurtalize them.  Sugar and IR are the biggies. 

 

Lets take sugar first.  With an A1c below 6.5 you have eliminated sugar risk.  From there to 7.0 the only damage you experiance from sugar is a very slow killing off of your beta cells.  The further you get from 6.5 the faster you kill them off.  When you get to 10 you have periods during the day probably after meals where sugar does all sorts of damage.  The higher you go from there the faster it will kill you. I know someone who died in less than 10 years after he was diagnosed.  He didn't change his life style and mat not have taken medication. After a few years of that one day he didn't feel so good and went to the hospital.  His BG was above 1000 and his A1c was above 15.  Walking in was the last time he ever walked.  Apparently he had been having micro strokes and that distroyed his brain enough he wasn't smart enough to walk.  His kidneys were also shot.  A year or so later he lost one foot then the other and they continued to remove parts of his legs. 

 

So sugar can kill but you need a great deal of that. 

 

Next IR.  IR can kill you independent to your A1c.  In fact most persons who die of a heart attack have normal A1cs.  A1c is a result of diet and your IR.  Just because you have a low A1c doesn't mean much, really.  Millions die somewhere every year with A1cs below 5.  If you don't mind dying early by all means focus on your A1c.  If not you need to work on both factors that will kill you early. The average diabetic T2D lives a decade less than the general public and T1D 20 years early. The problem with the stats are there are lots of T2D who live normal lives.  That means your average shmuck lives a lot shorter than that.

 

How can yopu reduce IR?  Meds there is no diet or excersise known to reduce IR.  It is actuually a very specific IR that your body controls with a hormone.  Unfortunatly, if the cells that make that hormone die, (l-cells). it becomes harder and harder to replace them because you need a normal level of the GLP-1 hormones to make replacements.  If you don't you make less and less and yur IR growes in intensitey until it kills you. The only way to up GLP-1 is to take medication.  By not taking an meds you will accelerate l-cell death making you more diabetic. 

 

There are people who don't eat starch and have very low A1cs.  They claim they have cured their diabetes but die early anyway.  With diabetes, what you don't know can kill you.

 

Just in case you need a refresher on what causes CVD or most specificly CAD -

IR is the primary cause of CAD

CONCLUSIONS — Insulin resistance is likely the most important single cause of CAD. A better understanding of its pathogenesis and how it might be prevented or cured could have a profound effect on CAD

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628708/pdf/361.pdf

 

We do know most of the details of its pathogenisis and know how to prevent it. You just need to start taking medication that upps your GLP-1. Metformin is the cheapest and safest one.  

 

If you can keep your fasting blood glucose below 120 your IR might be OK unless you don't eat enough carbs.  Low carb diets can interfere with FBGs.   By 'curing' themselves they only turned out the lights so you can't see what is happening.

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Re: ‘Fat but Fit’? The Controversy Continues

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Message 23 of 61

@RonMesnard  I'm supportive, in general, of people who are prediabetic and who work to reduce their A1C without meds. I've heard some people pay $900 a month for full blown diabetic supplies. If changing your lifestyle (losing weight and eating right) can keep you out of A1C trouble, I'm all for it. 

 

Indeed last summer DH and a friend of ours toiled hard to change their numbers. Both were successful. (Of course I played chef, trainer and cheerleader to all of this toiling, but they had to make the right choices day after day.)

 

The ones I have difficulty with are the ones who are 30 or more pounds overweight and who regularly eat refined flour baked goods while maintaining that they exercise by walking their dog around the block twice a day and also insisting that those bad-for-everybody baked goods are not doing them harm. DH calls that stupid on purpose. I really don't have a better term for it. Smiley Happy

 

Yes, I've read that the link between cardio vascular disease and insulin resistance cannot be understated. 

 

 

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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Re: ‘Fat but Fit’? The Controversy Continues

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Message 24 of 61

I don't know.  I paid for one of my sons to get tested but he never shared that info with me.  He is a lazy slug and probably never even looked at it.  I can assume I got mine from my mother.  My father and brothers stayed trim so I am guessing I got mine from my mom.  She lived till 93 so that might not be a bad deal for me.Out of my 2 parents and 2 brothers I am the only one who became a diabetic.  It may be that I may have lucked out.  I am certain they have the same diabetic gene and we know 3 of my grandparents needed insulin the 4th died in his middle age so he might have also had diabetic genes. There is a common gene that makes you prone to diabetes.  You either need more bad genes or become over weight to become T2.  Over 60% of out population probably has that gene.  This is the conclusion I come to from reading over 60% of our population has at least mild CVD by 65.  They now believe IR is central to CVD.  That is a bit less than blaming CVD on IR but if you don't have serious IR issues you never get any IR. Diabetics can get IR reducing medication.  Smart T2Ds can run less CVD risk than the general population.  I only had trace amounts of CVD at 65 putting me at a lower not higher risk that the general population.  Too bad many T2Ds prefer not to use drugs and 'stay clean'.  They have no idea what level or resk that have opted for.  They are soooo crazy they don't even notice when some of their fellows drop dead from diabetic complications.  They dismiss them as not relevent and will not ponder what happened to them.

 

I am guessing my oldest may have the gene.  He is heavier than I was at his age.  We both have high metabolisms with more than average mussle mass.  My other 2 are too young to tell. My mom was sleek at 30.  I have seen her in a 1950 2 peace swim suit.  She didn't mind showing off.

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Re: ‘Fat but Fit’? The Controversy Continues

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Message 25 of 61

@RonMesnard I wanted to ask you if other members of your family have the fat gene. I know one of my siblings has it. She also has a slightly different ethnic profile than me, though we share parents. Clearly siblings inherit different genes, however I still find the fact that she has a thimble full of Middle Eastern genes where I have none and also she has fewer Basque genes than do I rather fascinating. Smiley Happy

 

Being hungry all the time sounds awful. I had adopted a bad habit of eating mindlessly, you know, snacking while reading, having a treat to reward myself for completing a project, that sort of thing. Mindless eating put pounds on me. To take it off I returned to my routine of keeping tabs on all inputs and outputs. As long as I'm paying attention, I'm good. So that kinda speaks to your comment about obsession. Lots of people see my health initiatives as an obsession, anyway. I see it as the only way I'm going to stay healthy. Perspectives. Smiley Happy

 

 

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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Re: ‘Fat but Fit’? The Controversy Continues

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Message 26 of 61

@RonMesnard  Thanks for the tip on the genome testing. I'll look into that today. Great that it revealed such vital information for you. 

 

At the moment I'm basically wasting food, my metabolism is so fast. My body is done with an 11 AM lunch by 1 PM the next day. This troubles me because of the flu season; I can't be getting the nutrients I need at this rate. So I'm looking into slowing it down some.

 

Genes.

 

On the muscle building gig: yep. DH is a lifelong athlete with a dastardly streak of diabetes running through his family. (6 of 8 immediate family members are/were stricken) We've been working hard for a year to get and keep his blood sugars in the Most Excellent! zone. He has 18% body fat, but carries a wee amount of fat on his neck and at his waist. As he too is a competitive cyclist, we see adding muscle mass to his frame as a way to grant him better endurance without him having to consume sugar (Clif blocks) during a race. And to better process the carbs he consumes during training season.

 

Interesting information about female thought patterns relative to software engineers. That must be the nurture portion of the program: the differences in how a given society shapes the thoughts of females. Interesting. Maybe one of these days American women will grow up holding onto less fear (fear of not being accepted, fear of aging, fear of being unworthy). One can hope. Smiley Happy 

 

Nah, I don't get depressed. I'm practically Howdy Doody. I do have to withdraw sometimes in order to process everything and to maintain equilibrium. Introvert behavior, that. Menopause introduced me to an array of emotions with which I previously had no association. Thankfully that's over and I'm back to being my bada$$ self. Uh, rational and unflappable self. Yeah, that's it. LOL.

 

Smiley Happy

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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Re: ‘Fat but Fit’? The Controversy Continues

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Message 27 of 61

@Epsterunfortunatly I have the fat version of the FATSO gene.  That is a real bite in the ass.  Some people 'never' get hungry because their hunger alarm is set to a very low BG.  Normal is normal but  some of us get hungry at a BG where others are feeling satiated.  I have enough muscle mass that I can lose weight like most men.  We get REAL hungry but only need to hang in there a few weeks and we have lost a few pounds.  The shame of it is, to keep it off with a bad FATSO gene you are always hungry. 

 

Muscles buffering your sugars is way over sold.  It is true and more true if you are building muscle. Watching what you eat is way more powerful.

 

The phsyc value of hormores interests me.  Are you easily depressed?  I ask this because estrogen may help grow the limbic system.  Women have a more advanced limbic system which helps them bond better and make them more empathic.  (Amen)  The more developed your limbic system is the easier you can get depressed.  Minor changes in hormone levels may influence how our brain developes.  A poorly developed limbic system might explain why you have a harder time relating to women or more likely the other way around. Men have poorly developed limbic systems.  That would interfere with the man's primary job, killing things.  Animals for food and enemies because they are bad. Unlike women we can't multitask well but are exceptional at single task such as killing. That ability kept some of us alive long enough for use to reproduce.

 

Women's brains are different than men's.  That said there is diversity in both sexes.  I know women who think more like a man and vise versa.  I am mostly thinking about the ability to program computers.  I was trained as a biologist but make my money programming.  It takes a special kind of person to be any good at it at all. Very few non asian women born in the US think like a programmer.  While programmers from India are about half women.  I don't know if it is genitic or cultural.  Being able to think like a computer doesn't make you a better person but I am sure none of this is by chance.

 

I strongly suggest you down load your 23&me genome and get a report from these guys for $5.  You will not get as much out of as a biologist but you will get more than your $5 worth. I learned if I take a very rare drug it can kill me.  That alone is worth $5.  I am sure they test you before they give it to you now  but I can say don't bother and save some money. My father was almost killed by one of those drugs when he took a tiny test dose.

 

https://promethease.com/

 

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Re: ‘Fat but Fit’? The Controversy Continues

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Message 28 of 61

@RonMesnard  Right: muscle serves us in multiple ways, including acting as a 'buffer', if you will, for diabetes management. That's not my particular issue, though it is one of the reasons DH is doing resistance training and working with hand weights. 

 

For me, right now, it's all about weight to strength ratio. I'm thin. I'm strong. But I can still get better. Faster. Stronger. Smiley Happy In terms of my cycling races, I say I'm working on the engine, streamlining it, making it more efficient. I'm going to be looking into one of the trainers via the National Senior Games, to make sure I'm training in the best manner for my goals.

 

On the testosterone suspicion versus my long-missing estrogen: I was never a girly girl. My childhood was pretty much spent either up in a tree or running. Smiley Happy My best friends have always been male. I think we think alike, or at least process data alike. I get tripped up a lot trying to talk to women: they don't get me at all. (Well, very few ever have. I have two close women friends now that get me.)

 

Agreed on the 23andme tests: incredible access to data! As one who has mostly worked in PR, I'm not equipped to waltz into my account and make great sense of it all, certainly not on the level of a scientist, but still, so much data is offered there. For instance: I do not have the fat gene. So when I gain weight it is all lifestyle mistake, not genetics. (Rats, nobody to blame but myself. I hate it when that happens. Smiley Happy)

 

She who is obsessed with what is possible and who is headed to sweat out 2,000 plus calories on the local bike trail because ... racing happens. Smiley Happy 

 

 

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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Re: ‘Fat but Fit’? The Controversy Continues

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Message 29 of 61

Well testostrone is the real anabolic steroid, the rest are poor imitations.

 

As far as muscle mass, not olny are you stronger with more but have more reserve.

 

We all have our genetic cheats.  I have some for my profession. I got my 20k genome from 23&me for $150 then I sent that to Promethese and for $5 more dollars you get an excellent detailed report.  They are the library for the human genome studies.  The reports link back to their wiki so you have as much access as anyone except for people working on that gene. That is the most echonomical way to get a detailed report.  Most good tests are much more expensive and the cheaper ones might give you a 6 k genome.  You want the health genome.  That is the most demanding and expensive.  The FDA worries about health reports and those are tightly monitored.  

 

I was trained as a biologist but I could make a lot more money as a programmer.

 

Progesterone also is a bit like testostrone but not nearly as powerful.  Even just lacking estrogen will make you a bit more competitive.  High levels tend to make you more complacent but my wife has an over supply and she is hot tempered.  We are all way too complex that any one issue is a driving force except for obcessions. That is the only way we can devote enough time to a cause to become great. Without the obsession, you will never make it into that top 1%.    

 

My daughter has it and she may make it into the 1% for her love.  She is probably at the 1% for her age (mid 20s) but to do anything she needs to get much better. I tried to get her to revamp her resume as how I would write it.  She is a music performace major. Employers will write off music majors as worthless.  Anyone graduating a performance major at a demanding conservatory is a perfectionist. What organization can't use a perfectionist graduating at the top of her class in one of the top 20 most compeititive colleges in the USA?   I had a talk with someone about another student.  He had more natural tallents than some of these 1%ers but his grades were too poor to get into a decent school.  I told him grades will closer predict how you come out as long as you have enough god given tallent.  To make it, you need to be driven to excellance no matter what you do. If you are told to do 2 hrs a day of terriblly boring excersise they do it or more. Like in any disiplin that requires practice, those are the ones to watch out for.

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Message 30 of 61

@RonMesnard  Hey, nice to meet a member of my tribe! Smiley Happy

 

Sorry it took so long to get back to you; mine was one of the accounts that was virtually locked down due to the recent log in issues. I couldn't post, give kudos or access my account's settings for well over a week. And this comment just got lost in the dust. Sorry.

 

Yeah, I confess to holding myself to high standards. I actually expect to be in the top whatever percent of whatever I do. It's maybe crazy, but this drive to excel has also taken me every place I wanted to go. So I agree, it's a good crazy. That said, it's nice to be recognized rather than vilified as so often happens. Smiley Happy I yam what I yam, right? Smiley Happy

 

On the cycling: I race a trike precisely because I have balance issues on an upright bike. (I tend to run a street bike off a cliff, or into a wall as if that was actually the plan... ugh.) So the trike helps  overcome my balance shortcomings. DH says I just tend to move too fast and that if you add two wheels to that you get trouble. He's a unicyclist, so he doesn't have balance issues. 

 

As far as the speed I've been able to attain so far on the trike (I now cruise bike trails at 24 mph with ease) I think it has a lot to do with brawn. I just push harder. Longer. 

 

A funny thing, since you mentioned testosterone. I had zero estrogen in my system in my 40s, according to a lab test. They failed to test testosterone, but I secretly suspect that I've always had more of that than what is considered normal for a female. I say work it! Smiley Happy 

 

See this woman? I want to be her at her age (I think she's now 65. I'm 58.) She is some kind of something!

Kay Glynn, 64.png

 

 

 

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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