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Re: ‘Fat but Fit’? The Controversy Continues

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Message 11 of 57

@Epster, I forgot to add the IR dopamine connection is not a hunch it is real and most likely why some diabetics are depressed. Your hunch turned out to be true.

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Message 12 of 57

@Epster, all you need to say when you are buying test strips that you intend to buy them without insurance.  You can get them paid for if you are a diabetic and show the perscription. On line is always cheeper.

 

Bayer has the best value and Abbot are the most accurate. Since I only test once a day I use Abbot and pay triple for the strip.  I always test my blood right before a blood draw so I can check the meter with the lab.  The most off the Abbot has been is 1 point in several years. The rest can be off 20%.  In families where you need to get fat before you get sugar problems means post meal issues are not a big deal.  If you become diabetic and are as skinny as a rail you will have lots of post meal issues because you have more bad genes than I do.  

 

Your husband is good for BP.  Now 120 is the start of medication.  Most Drs will not perscribe until you hit 130-140.  140 is malpractise in my book but I am extreme.  Actually BP and LDL/tris are far more telling about diabetic problems. than sugars.  The meter is more valuable than an A1c.  The most important value is the morning fasting BG or FBG.  That is completely due to your level of IR.  IR is what causes complications.  Being a nut I always error on being too careful and never to be caveleer about anyone's health.  As long as you are not crazy with meals and your FBG is below 120 your beta cells are protected. That is borderline toxic BG.  Your b-cells can recover while you sleep as long as your BGs stay below 120. Since you don't eat when you sleep, a low morning FBG mean your b-cells had time to fully recover.   

 

I am a 20 year diabetic and have the same food responce as I did 20 years ago.  I usually maintain 120 or lower.  If I don't I am fighting with my Dr.  Eventually I get my way.  She is way more fearful of over perscribing than I am.  I never get lows because of what is wrong with me but she is consumed with keeping me minimumally controled for my own good.  She forgets these fine points that I don't.

 

If you test you might as well be smart.  The after meal BGs are more meaningful if you have a sugar problem.  Then you need to avoid too much of a bad food.  This is fairly specific to the person so self testing is the only smart way to learn what you need to avoid.

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Re: ‘Fat but Fit’? The Controversy Continues

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Message 13 of 57

@RonMesnard  Couple of off the top on my head responses in blue. 

RonMesnard wrote:

No I hadn’t heard anything about the relationship between insulin resistance and dopamine. I  researched diabetes causing depression but never came across this. This makes very much sense.

 

This is just a hunch of mine, that there is a relationship between dopamine and insulin resistance, based on watching DH's everythings closely for the past few years.

 

 

 

Pain meds are not supposed to fix anything other than cut pain. You picked a terrible for instance.

 

Well, yeah, but pain meds and antibiotics are the only type of prescription I have ever been given. 90% of all my ills have been sports related injury. Casts, crutches, ace bandages, those are the repair approaches with which I am most familiar. Drugs are a foreign world to me.

 

 

 

If you don’t have high blood pressure or any dangerous symptoms of something serious I wouldn’t take drugs either.

 

Nope. No high blood pressure and no other medical issues. I was anemic for much of my life, but I've managed to fix that.

 

 

 

Apple Watch can now pick out diabetics from their heart defects. Having a heart disorder is normal for a diabetic and is the most likely cause of death.

 

Very interesting.

 

 

 

 

Losing weight is about as powerful as medicine.

 

Amen and amen.

 

My hips were bad so I got very angry with my gluttony and lost 30 pounds. That kept me from getting a hip replacement and taking insulin. 

 

Hurrah!

 

If you husband takes BP meds he needs to review “taking BP meds before bed slashes diabetic risk. The meds are way more powerful than life style (he isn’t fat). This is new and the medical community is still coming to terms with this. The BP meds protect you l-cells some. That and not sugar is the root cause of diabetes.

 

His BP is typically 120/80. His resting pulse is typically 60. He's not on any medications. He's perfectly healthy outside the fact that his organs are (my view: grossly) inefficient.

 


DH ordered a glucose monitor through the Walmart pharmacy. When we went to pick it up they insisted that he needed a prescription for it. (The website said differently.) Anyway, so now he needs to see if his PCP will prescribe one. The game plan had been to monitor closely for a month, then go into the PCP armed with a year's worth of food diary and A1C tests and the data from the glucose monitoring system. Clearly, modern medicine thinks we have the cart before the horse. We heartly disagree, but what are ya gonna do? Smiley Happy

 

blah blah blah Smiley Happy must be time for a movie. Smiley Happy

 

 

 

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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Message 14 of 57

No I hadn’t heard anything about the relationship between insulin resistance and dopamine. I I researched diabetes causing depression but never came across this. This makes very much sense. IR insulin resistance changes things globally. Insulin is required to make many hormones. Your body makes little of the hormones that need insulin.   The lack of hormones is the primary cause if the hardening of the arteries and likely other problems

.

That said, I'm really of the fix this with lifestyle camp. I'm anti drug. They do more masking than curing and while they are at it they create new problems. I didn't even take pain meds after my hysterectomy. I wanted my body to tell me when I should rest.

Pain meds are not supposed to fix anything other than cut pain. You picked a terrible for instance. I take a lot of drugs and they are keeping me alive. I have 2 dangerous chronic diseases. I shouldn’t still be above ground. Instead, I am considered very healthy.

 

Of course, I'm not diabetic, so I can take a no drug stance, can't I?

If you don’t have high blood pressure or any dangerous symptoms of something serious I wouldn’t take drugs either.

 

Few diabetics are the same. There may be as many as 1,000 genes that will add to your diabetes. We have identified hundreds of the worst ones. Although certain rules are universal such and your morning fast should be below 120 and you shouldn’t go above 140 after meals very often. What you eat can control the after-meal spike but not the morning. You need drugs. What cause a high before you eat damages arteries.  Apple Watch can now pick out diabetics from their heart defects. Having a heart disorder is normal for a diabetic and is the most likely cause of death. T2Ds live 10 years less than John Doe.

We foolishly focus too hard on sugars. If your sugar is controlled, it is more of a symptom than the cause of d-complications.

 

https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/07/the-apple-watch-can-detect-diabetes-with-an-85-accuracy-cardiogram...

 

Extra belly fat is a killer for a diabetic. People like your husband will not get diabetes unless they gain weight. Just because you don’t get diabetes is no guarantee that you will not die from a heart attack. Most people who die from a heart attack are not diabetics. That is a diabetic complication. Medication plays a strong role while diet and exercise only help a little. Life style helps with a diminished return as you increase you efforts.

 

I'm glad you are studying things from a different angle. We need that, so go go go! Clearly, what we (the corporate we) are doing hasn't been working.

Medicine has been super helpful. When I was diagnosed most persons when to insulin by 10 years. Now that is rare. I probably wll never use insulin because I keep my FBG OK. My doc will not give me the meds to control like I would like. I continue to talk with her. I take more meds (including BP meds) than she would like. She relies too much on an A1c and not enough on FBG. A1c is a mixture of factors not just a measure of your IR as they treat it. If you completely cut the carbs you can have an A1c of 5. Are they protecting themselves from complications? Probably not!

I lucked out because I lost weight. Now we know that is the most powerful life style change we can do. Losing weight is about as powerful as medicine. My hips were bad so I got very angry with my gluttony and lost 30 pounds. That kept me from getting a hip replacement and taking insulin. Now getting diabetes is getting rare because Drs are catching them early. Pre-D is way easier to manage than diabetes.

 

If you husband takes BP meds he needs to review “taking BP meds before bed slashes diabetic risk. The meds are way more powerful than life style (he isn’t fat). This is new and the medical community is still coming to terms with this. The BP meds protect you l-cells some. That and not sugar is the root cause of diabetes.

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Re: ‘Fat but Fit’? The Controversy Continues

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Message 15 of 57

@RonMesnard  Crazy busy with multiple proposals over here. Sorry for both the delay in response and the lack of depth that I am now giving. ;(

 

Yes, agreed, there are snake charmers out there selling miracle diabetes cures. That said, I'm really of the fix this with lifestyle camp. I'm anti drug. They do more masking than curing and while they are at it they create new problems. I didn't even take pain meds after my hysterectomy. I wanted my body to tell me when I should rest. (Good news: it did. Smiley Happy)

 

Of course, I'm not diabetic, so I can take a no drug stance, can't I? Smiley Happy

 

Dear Hubby's DNA is apparently a diabetes playground. He's an atypical case, though. He's never been fat (or even overweight), has always been fit, active, athletic, careful with what he eats. The only two people in his immediate family that either did not die from diabetes, who do not now struggle with complications from diabetes, or who are not working hard to reduce A1C as a control mechanism are his sister who died young and his 90-something year-old father. Not that the rest of the sibs have lead perfectly fit, lean, food conscious lives, mind you.  Hmmmm, huh?

 

So for him, at least, there's more to the story than carbs. We are looking into getting a continuous glucose monitoring system so that he can get immediate feedback as to what is helping and what is not.

 

Anyway, there's lots in your posts to chew on and while I don't necessarily agree with some of it at this moment, I can tell you that that isn't going to stop me from considering it and looking into things afresh. Starting with insulin resistance and dopamine. The relationship, you know.

 

I'm glad you are studying things from a different angle. We need that, so go go go! Smiley Happy Clearly, what we (the corporate we) are doing hasn't been working. Clearly one size is not fitting all here. So hurrah to you for digging around and searching for previously overlooked clues. 

 

Smiley Happy

 

I'm done for tonight, but not done yet. Smiley Happy

 

 

 

 

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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Message 16 of 57

What I sent do was beyond bleeding ege tech.  The l-cell destruction making dibetic progression is my own theroy. I is the only thing that makes sense with the peices of the puzzle that we have.  I am very good at these guesses.  Every few months I troll for experiments proving another piece of the puzzle.  I am not uniquely smart and there must be others working on this theroy.  The last time I looked which was just a few months ago I found the styudy on l-cell replication.  At least one group is working on it and hit pay dirt. That alone nails the lid on l-cells being how people with metabilic syndrom which is very common become diabetics. 

 

The other half is it is likely something is killing l-cells in pre-Ds. It is likely the cortosol your body uses to wake up.  You wake up to a shot of cortosol.  The most common time to die from a heart attack is 30 min before you normally wake.  That is when your cortosol levels spike.  Some smart person wondered what would happens if you take BP meds before bed insted of in the morning.  You cut heart attack is more than half.  The crazier thing they learned is some BP meds taken at night greatly reduce the risk of diabetes. Ace inhibitors, ARBs and beta blockers. b-blockers redece it by a third and the other 2 cut it more than in half.  These all will reduce cortosol release. They are reduce stress hormones from working proberly.  These pack a 1-2 by also reducing the amount of cortosol your body releases.  It effects you BP enough to kill the 'unlucky'.  They really arn't unlucky they just had too much damage to their arteries to live much longer. The pipes are fragile and one big spike of cortosol breaks the weak pipe and you die. The proces is very mechanical. 

 

The biggest problem we have is we don't know much about l-cells.  We didn't know they had anything to do with diabetes until very recently.  We discover them by figuring out how metformin worked.  That was created back when all our drugs came from nature.  We didn't have the science to understand how the drugs worked.  It wasn't until the late 90s that they figured out metformin irritates the l-cells to make more GLP-1.  Since then we have come up with two drugs that work on GLP-1.   The most powerful is an injection and the FDA has approved its use for fighting CVD in super high risk patients even if their A1c is normal.

 

If someone wants to prevent diabetes they can't fo it with diet or excersise.  They are working under the assumption that it is sugars to turn you into a diabetic.  The jury is still out but there is absoultly no evidance to support this.  Lower GLP-1s raise IR and that raises fasting BGs because it 'breaks' the 'off switch' for liver dumps.  They have confused the symptom at the cause.  I believe it will take a decade or more for doctors to grasph what is actually going on let alone everyone else. 

 

If you want to slow or prevent diabetes you need to take ARB or ACE BP meds before bed.  The new guidelines for medication are anyone that sees a 120 ml our higher BP anytime during the day. You want to be taking metformin.  Both these actions ought to slow down the loss of your l-cells.

 

I least that is how I see it.  I believe the movement to go natural and control diabetes with diet is a dangerous movement.  We don't have data on if this movement is killing large groups of persons.  I do know when confronted with a death of one of these (non) diabetics (they were cured by diet) they can't handlle the death objectivly.  They ignore the warnings that they they are not cured and are at the highest risk for death.

 

Feel free to ask any question when it comes to mind.   

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Message 17 of 57

Hey Ron, @RonMesnard screamed by to say wow! thanks for all this data. I have an all-day commitment so will have to digest this later. (My body's metabolism may be cranking right now, but ye olde noggin still likes to take its time. Smiley Happy)

 

Appreciate your generosity, loads!

 

Epster, off to conquer the hill of the day

 

 

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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Message 18 of 57

@Epster, I like you and that will not change if you think I am wrong.  I will try to educate you to my way of thinking for thiis area I believe to be expert in.  I have averaged 10 hrs research for the last 20 years.  My goal of a diabetic is to live a normal life span and not die a horrible slow death. By all bench marks I am doing just that.  I have had 2 medical professionals claim I was the healthiest long term diabetic they had ever seen. I don't have any symptoms I should have even at only 5 years of diabetes.  The other docs only say I am remarkable.   

 

Silly me does so by reducing risks.  I prioritise the risks with the most deadly at the top.  Then I figure out how to neurtalize them.  Sugar and IR are the biggies. 

 

Lets take sugar first.  With an A1c below 6.5 you have eliminated sugar risk.  From there to 7.0 the only damage you experiance from sugar is a very slow killing off of your beta cells.  The further you get from 6.5 the faster you kill them off.  When you get to 10 you have periods during the day probably after meals where sugar does all sorts of damage.  The higher you go from there the faster it will kill you. I know someone who died in less than 10 years after he was diagnosed.  He didn't change his life style and mat not have taken medication. After a few years of that one day he didn't feel so good and went to the hospital.  His BG was above 1000 and his A1c was above 15.  Walking in was the last time he ever walked.  Apparently he had been having micro strokes and that distroyed his brain enough he wasn't smart enough to walk.  His kidneys were also shot.  A year or so later he lost one foot then the other and they continued to remove parts of his legs. 

 

So sugar can kill but you need a great deal of that. 

 

Next IR.  IR can kill you independent to your A1c.  In fact most persons who die of a heart attack have normal A1cs.  A1c is a result of diet and your IR.  Just because you have a low A1c doesn't mean much, really.  Millions die somewhere every year with A1cs below 5.  If you don't mind dying early by all means focus on your A1c.  If not you need to work on both factors that will kill you early. The average diabetic T2D lives a decade less than the general public and T1D 20 years early. The problem with the stats are there are lots of T2D who live normal lives.  That means your average shmuck lives a lot shorter than that.

 

How can yopu reduce IR?  Meds there is no diet or excersise known to reduce IR.  It is actuually a very specific IR that your body controls with a hormone.  Unfortunatly, if the cells that make that hormone die, (l-cells). it becomes harder and harder to replace them because you need a normal level of the GLP-1 hormones to make replacements.  If you don't you make less and less and yur IR growes in intensitey until it kills you. The only way to up GLP-1 is to take medication.  By not taking an meds you will accelerate l-cell death making you more diabetic. 

 

There are people who don't eat starch and have very low A1cs.  They claim they have cured their diabetes but die early anyway.  With diabetes, what you don't know can kill you.

 

Just in case you need a refresher on what causes CVD or most specificly CAD -

IR is the primary cause of CAD

CONCLUSIONS — Insulin resistance is likely the most important single cause of CAD. A better understanding of its pathogenesis and how it might be prevented or cured could have a profound effect on CAD

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628708/pdf/361.pdf

 

We do know most of the details of its pathogenisis and know how to prevent it. You just need to start taking medication that upps your GLP-1. Metformin is the cheapest and safest one.  

 

If you can keep your fasting blood glucose below 120 your IR might be OK unless you don't eat enough carbs.  Low carb diets can interfere with FBGs.   By 'curing' themselves they only turned out the lights so you can't see what is happening.

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Message 19 of 57

@RonMesnard  I'm supportive, in general, of people who are prediabetic and who work to reduce their A1C without meds. I've heard some people pay $900 a month for full blown diabetic supplies. If changing your lifestyle (losing weight and eating right) can keep you out of A1C trouble, I'm all for it. 

 

Indeed last summer DH and a friend of ours toiled hard to change their numbers. Both were successful. (Of course I played chef, trainer and cheerleader to all of this toiling, but they had to make the right choices day after day.)

 

The ones I have difficulty with are the ones who are 30 or more pounds overweight and who regularly eat refined flour baked goods while maintaining that they exercise by walking their dog around the block twice a day and also insisting that those bad-for-everybody baked goods are not doing them harm. DH calls that stupid on purpose. I really don't have a better term for it. Smiley Happy

 

Yes, I've read that the link between cardio vascular disease and insulin resistance cannot be understated. 

 

 

"The key to success is to keep growing in all areas of life - mental, emotional, spiritual, as well as physical." Julius Erving
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Message 20 of 57

I don't know.  I paid for one of my sons to get tested but he never shared that info with me.  He is a lazy slug and probably never even looked at it.  I can assume I got mine from my mother.  My father and brothers stayed trim so I am guessing I got mine from my mom.  She lived till 93 so that might not be a bad deal for me.Out of my 2 parents and 2 brothers I am the only one who became a diabetic.  It may be that I may have lucked out.  I am certain they have the same diabetic gene and we know 3 of my grandparents needed insulin the 4th died in his middle age so he might have also had diabetic genes. There is a common gene that makes you prone to diabetes.  You either need more bad genes or become over weight to become T2.  Over 60% of out population probably has that gene.  This is the conclusion I come to from reading over 60% of our population has at least mild CVD by 65.  They now believe IR is central to CVD.  That is a bit less than blaming CVD on IR but if you don't have serious IR issues you never get any IR. Diabetics can get IR reducing medication.  Smart T2Ds can run less CVD risk than the general population.  I only had trace amounts of CVD at 65 putting me at a lower not higher risk that the general population.  Too bad many T2Ds prefer not to use drugs and 'stay clean'.  They have no idea what level or resk that have opted for.  They are soooo crazy they don't even notice when some of their fellows drop dead from diabetic complications.  They dismiss them as not relevent and will not ponder what happened to them.

 

I am guessing my oldest may have the gene.  He is heavier than I was at his age.  We both have high metabolisms with more than average mussle mass.  My other 2 are too young to tell. My mom was sleek at 30.  I have seen her in a 1950 2 peace swim suit.  She didn't mind showing off.

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