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Honored Social Butterfly

A Person's Right To Choose

I am reading more and more articles with this type of subject.

Why can we not determine our own fate IN ADVANCE - I am not talking about just saying "NO" to some life-saving measure in a Living Will or Healthcare Directive - I am talking about planning death when we reach some self-described moment.

I am not interested in hanging around when I can no longer take care of my daily care, relying on someone to feed, cloth, bath and change me.

I am not interested in hanging around when I can no longer make decisions for my own self.

Maybe that is just me - but there seems to be many more "me's" surfacing.

I do not know why this discussion whould have to be done in "secret".  This is not a "subversive" subject - As long as it is planned in a right mind, with some type of health/body/mind landmark, planned in advance - it is a personal choice.  Do you agree?

 

Many states already have "Aid in Dying" laws but they aren't to my liking since you have to be in a right mind condition to pull the plug and there has been some problems getting doctors to cooperate even when all the legalees have been covered. 

 

I don't know why there is not a specific board on this site for people to discuss it - I have just been putting my articles here on this "Conditions and Treatment" board since nothing else seems to fit.

 

Kaiser Health News 06/25/2019 - In Secret, Seniors Discuss ‘Rational Suicide’

 

Comments?

 

For like-minded individuals, how do we get others to listen - legislators / medical professionals - these seem to be the primary ones - course then there are those family members that must be made aware of the decision with hopefully their support.

 

 

Honored Social Butterfly

Canadians seem to want what I am routing for - A preplanned choice based on some determined and described medical condition.

 

Right now, Canadians have MAID (Medical Aid In Dying) - yes, even paid for by their National Health System when coverage is based on their limited law.

 

Their law limits are basically like what we are experiencing in many US states that have a Right to Die law.  That is to say, it has to be initiated at the time NOT based on some planned time in the future by the person desiring such a choice.

 

CBC - Canada 10/03/2019 - Trudeau says he would look at ways to improve medical assistance in dying ...

(the comments are very interesting - people seem to want to be able to plan this in advance - perhaps based on some personally descibed health condition).

 

Course then there, as here in states that have some law on their books, you have to find a (qualified) health professional that wil help.

 

Canadian Government - Current Medical Assistance In Dying

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Many interesting points have been brought up here. However still being a Religious person I believe that any time an Artificial way of Breathing or Eating is used, you have taken life out of God's hands and made a Human decision.

 

I don't believe that resuciatong necesarily falls into the same thing. However once a person is given a chance by resucitation, using artificial means to keep them alive is playing with "Fire". I don't believe a person should Suffer, but once again i am not sure how much suffering is in God's plan for us. If you think about it this could be what the Bible refers to as "HELL". There is so much that is difficult for us to understand as HUMAN BEINGS. Some of it we just have to accept. I realiuze that not everybody feels the same way as I do, nor even believes in the same God as I do. And believe me I respect you and your beliefs the same way that I respect anyone else.

 

The way this Forum started was about ending your own life in termiinal situations and I still don't believe that a person shouild ever take their own life, no matter what the future may hold. THIS IS DEFINITELY IN GOD'S HANDS, I don't think that a decison made about a feeding tube or breathing tube or any other tube or the lack of there of, is the same as taking a pill.

Johninnevada
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Honored Social Butterfly

For those with more interest on this topic or just want to know more - here are links to other post which I have made on this AARP Board on related topics.  There are probably more.

Think I am gonna do one of those video Health Care Directives - stating my wishes specifically and in detail.

 

Lethal Plans - AARP Conditions and Treatment Board 04/10/2019

A small amount of discussion from AARP board participants with some other links, having to do with this article:

Kaiser Health News: Senior Suicides - A Right or A Mental Illness - Who Decides

 

Modern Way of Stating Your End of Life Wishes - AARP Conditions and Treatment Board 11/30/2017

A small amount of discussion from AARP board participants with a link having to do with this article:

This could be a good solution - Video recording of your SPECIFIC desires -

KHN - Straight From the Patient's Mouth: Video Can Clearly State Your End-Of-Life Wishes

 

Here is another:  See even ER doctors have conflict - who should they save & when.

Kaiser Health News 05/26/2017 - Influx Of Elderly Patients Forces ER To Practice Comfort Care

 

I believe this is the one about the lady with dementia that had a Health Care Directive with the NO Feeding Tube option and they put it anyway - didn't want her to starve to death.

 

KHN 08/21/2017!-'Despite Advance Directive, Dementia Patient Denied Last Wish, says Spouse

 

 

REMEMBER:  Life's a Journey, not a Destination" . . . . . .  Aerosmith

 

 

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I couldn't agree more. My husband and I both feel that way. We're in our 70's and in good health, but as you know that can change at any moment. It would provide a feeling of relief if we could put our desires (to die at a certain point) in writing and have our wishes honored. My mother is 93 and is reaching that point where she is needing help with bathing, dressing & so on. Just today, she said she wished that she could just (legally) take a pill when she's ready. She's actually ready now, but is too good of health and clearly has more time yet. She still enjoys life on some levels, but should she ever be bedridden--she'll be angry at God and the world for making her stay alive. It's the Judeo-Christian (and the medical community) ethic that life is so precious it should be extended no matter the wishes of the person themselves. I'm all in favor of changing that, but I'm afraid it won't happen soon enough to help us.

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To the board administrator:

 

Is there any way to make a reply to another post and have it (the reply) posted directly attached to the subject post? Fore instance, I replyied to "johninnevada" but my post is no where near his post.

 

While we're at it, is there any way to read the posts in chronological order rather than in reverse (newest first)? It makes no sense when reading a reply to a post before reading the subject post first.

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Retired Community Manager

Hi @willhewonthe

 

Unfortunately the posts are not organized with replies directly under the post replied to, but you can use the "@" symbol with the user's name, and they will be notified of your reply when you mention them. And, you can use the "Quote" button and the top right of the typing screen to show what you're replying to in your post (as I've done here).

 

You can view posts from oldest to newest by clicking the elipses (three dots) button at the top left of a thread next to the yellow Reply button and selecting "Sort Oldest to Newest" in the pull-down menu.

 


@willhewonthe wrote:

To the board administrator:

 

Is there any way to make a reply to another post and have it (the reply) posted directly attached to the subject post? Fore instance, I replyied to "johninnevada" but my post is no where near his post.

 

While we're at it, is there any way to read the posts in chronological order rather than in reverse (newest first)? It makes no sense when reading a reply to a post before reading the subject post first.


 

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I am not talking about Machines or Medicines that bring us back to life or help us when we are injured. I am talking about Machines that are used to keep someone alive when they are Brain Dead or will never be able to function as a Human Being again.

 

What I don't believe in is Mercy Killing or commiting Suicide. Taking a pill is just that; a form of SUICIDE. What I am realy saying is that I don't belive in taking your own life and I don't believe in Doctors just keeping someone alive when they will never function as a human being again. I believe that in both instances this should be Gods Decision. I do believe that we should have the right to tell Doctors that we do not want to be kept alive by Machine.

 

I know that I am not making myself totally clear. I know what I want for me, I just find it difficult to totaly express myself when it come to this subject. I realize that this is a Personal Decision and I respect everyones feelings on this subject.

 

 

Johninnevada
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@johninnevada wrote:

I am not talking about Machines or Medicines that bring us back to life or help us when we are injured. I am talking about Machines that are used to keep someone alive when they are Brain Dead or will never be able to function as a Human Being again.

 

What I don't believe in is Mercy Killing or commiting Suicide. Taking a pill is just that; a form of SUICIDE. What I am realy saying is that I don't belive in taking your own life and I don't believe in Doctors just keeping someone alive when they will never function as a human being again. I believe that in both instances this should be Gods Decision. I do believe that we should have the right to tell Doctors that we do not want to be kept alive by Machine.

 

I know that I am not making myself totally clear. I know what I want for me, I just find it difficult to totaly express myself when it come to this subject. I realize that this is a Personal Decision and I respect everyones feelings on this subject.

 

*** End of referenced post ***


But you did say in an earlier post, "It is GOD's decision when our life should end." Should we use antibiotics, staunch bleeding, perform artificial resuscitation, etc.? Are these not "artificial" ways of prolonging life when, if left to GOD, the person may die. Did not GOD also create bacteria? Is using antibiotics to kill "GOD's" bacteria in order to prolong life not against GOD's will? When one starts invoking GOD'S will one really opens up a can of worms.   

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@johninnevada wrote:

I am not talking about Machines or Medicines that bring us back to life or help us when we are injured. I am talking about Machines that are used to keep someone alive when they are Brain Dead or will never be able to function as a Human Being again.

 

What I don't believe in is Mercy Killing or commiting Suicide. Taking a pill is just that; a form of SUICIDE. What I am realy saying is that I don't belive in taking your own life and I don't believe in Doctors just keeping someone alive when they will never function as a human being again. I believe that in both instances this should be Gods Decision. I do believe that we should have the right to tell Doctors that we do not want to be kept alive by Machine.

 

I know that I am not making myself totally clear. I know what I want for me, I just find it difficult to totaly express myself when it come to this subject. I realize that this is a Personal Decision and I respect everyones feelings on this subject.

*** End of referenced post ***

 

 

But you did say earlier, "It is GOD's decision when our life should end." Taking antibiotics, staunching bleeding, giving artificial respiration, etc. are also "artificial" ways of prolonging life. Should we not in these situations also rely on GOD's decisions? Did not GOD also create the bacteria that cause death? Is killing those bacteria with antibiotics not going against GOD's will?

 

 

 

 


 

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Honored Social Butterfly


@johninnevada wrote:

I am not talking about Machines or Medicines that bring us back to life or help us when we are injured. I am talking about Machines that are used to keep someone alive when they are Brain Dead or will never be able to function as a Human Being again.

 

What I don't believe in is Mercy Killing or commiting Suicide. Taking a pill is just that; a form of SUICIDE. What I am realy saying is that I don't belive in taking your own life and I don't believe in Doctors just keeping someone alive when they will never function as a human being again. I believe that in both instances this should be Gods Decision. I do believe that we should have the right to tell Doctors that we do not want to be kept alive by Machine.

 

I know that I am not making myself totally clear. I know what I want for me, I just find it difficult to totaly express myself when it come to this subject. I realize that this is a Personal Decision and I respect everyones feelings on this subject.

 

 


I understand where you are coming from here - that is your right.  However, I have always had a hard time determining "God's Will" in many areas of my life.

 

A few questions:

How far are you willing to extend treatment for a condition for which there may not be an outright cure but just to keep you alive? 

Would you not determine the depth and breadth of continuing treatment based on your quality of life at the time?

Have you ever seen a severe stroke patient that has no more ability to walk, move, speak, think, rationalize and possibly more - they are dependent upon others for all of their daily living care - this may last for years and years - Is that really "living"?

 

I posted another story here somewhere back about a woman that had made the choice long ago not to be kept alive by artificial means - a feeding tube is one of those choices which most all Living Wills or Health Care directives cover.

 

She got to the end stage of Alzhiemers.  Of course she was then in a total care facility.  Her husband visited often and one day he discovered that a feeding tube had been inserted because now she would not take food by mouth - her mind had forgotten how to do perform this life-sustaining function..  He was angry that this decision had been taken out of the choice his wife had made years before.  Medical providers and the staff at the facility had a dilemma - were they to let her starve to death???  The husband sued to have it removed.  I do not remember the outcome of the lawsuit.  What would God's decision have been?

 

You see, what is available to us now is only a choice under very specific conditions - DNR, breathing machine, tube feeding, etc.  Even in those states where there are some form of "Right to Die" legislation have a hard time with it.  People have to be in the right mind to make the decision right then and initiate their time to die, then there is the problem of who can help.

 

We all know that life does not go in some perfect step where we can plan perfectly or have  legislation which can cover all the bases of what will or might happen.  So all I am saying is there needs to be markers of health which a person can choose in advance as to when they are ready to die and then it should be just another compassionate medical procedure to put them at rest.  Mine would be at a time when I cannot make decision for myself - because up to that point I should still have the right to accept or deny any treatments or care.

 

 

 

 

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You bring up an interesting point. A person is no longer able to swallow. Is a feeding tube appropriate or does it violate the person's choice. A Living will and Health Proxy covers these  situations. If one believes that life and death are in "God's" hand then isn't swallowing or not swallowing also in "God's" hand? Is a feeding tube interfering with God's plan?

 

Five days before my Mom died we spoke about her wishes. We had no idea she was about to die and I don't recall what triggered the discussion. It was, after all, 2010. We agreed that if she was unable to articulate in any way her wishes I would take over and make the decision. Keeping her on any form of life support was limited to three days giving me time to find out if there was any hope of recovery. Three days later she slipped into unconsciousness. She suffered from congestive heart failure. Her heart stopped and emts resuscitated her. Apparently a Living Will and Health Proxy are only honored in the hospital. At the hospital she was intubated. I pushed the doctors to give me a diagnosis. It was determined that she could breathe on her own but there was minimal brain stem function. She was gone but her body hadn't caught up to the situation.  The breathing tube was removed, she was given morphine for pain as she was unable to respond to pain. Her heart stopped 32 hours later. Was that God's choice? Or was it mine? I think it depends on your faith.

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Just a test to see what "Quick Reply" does.

 

 

 

OK. I got some if it figured out. Now I can't delete some of these test posts.

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Yes. 

Each person should have a Right to Choose.  It is part of our basic freedoms. 

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Yes.  

A person should have a Right to Die.  

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Join Compassion and Choices. Great organization working for the right to die

 

Honored Social Butterfly


@FrancoiseF775568 wrote:

Join Compassion and Choices. Great organization working for the right to die

 


Thank You so much for the Compassion and Choice.org suggestion.

Definitely "The Right To Choose" freedom that I would like to support.

 

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I truly believe this should not be a person"s decicision. Nor should it be anyome's elses. It is GOD's decision when our life should end.

 

This means that a decision should not be made to keep us alive with machines. No one except for God, has any right to make this decision and least of all it is a Doctors right to decide. 

 

In case you are wondering I am 84 years old and having a great Marriage and a Great life. I am very active and in fact I still work 2 8 hour shifts every week and I an not ready to die but whern the time comes I feel I will be ready,

 

If you Believe in God, you are ready to enter into your futire life in Heaven.

Johninnevada
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"This means that a decision should not be made to keep us alive with machines." Does this also include no antibiotics for infections? How about tourniquets or pressure bandages for bleeding? Artificial respiration for drowning? Any lifesaving techniques in any situation or disease?

 

Did "God" not also give us a brain? Does "He" not expect us to use it?

 

I believe that we should use our brains to make living and dying decisions whenever we are able.

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Periodic Contributor

Not everyone believes in your God.  

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Absolutely!

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I agree whole heartedly.