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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 761 of 1,450

And the CA state law that purportedly "mandates" water fluoridation is not even actionable. No mention is made for what source chemical to use for fluoride. Does this mean we can use arsenic fluoride, fluosilicic acid for fluoride, anything with fluoride?  Of course not, but no source is even stated. AND the tacit assumption in the opening of the law states that ingesting fluoride (no source identified) reduces caries. This of course has always been false, based on a correlation with natural calcium fluoride in water that never was causative (as described previously, fluoride absence does not cause caries and dental enamel is so hard that fluoride cannot enter its matrix, and saliva fluoride at 0.016 ppm from water ingestion is 96,000 times less concentrated than in toothpaste). So the State "Mandate" has no meaning. 

I encourage cities in CA to halt fluoridation because all those that have are not under any penalty or punishment of any kind. In fact,  CA DPH officials wrote to me saying that CA DPH does not require cities to fluoridate. That decision is made by city officials themselves. We do not oppose it and we do not endorse it.

So don't worry cities, just stop the program, save your funds for something useful, and go back to delivering clean fresh drinking water as you always had done before the "mandate" that has no interpretable meaning. 

[One city in CA that is listed as fluoridated is actually not , becasue the water operator stopped ordering the hazardous waste and his suprvisor didn't care either. Some cities have rational officials]. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 762 of 1,450

For anyone interested:  While we are on the subject of being fraudulent, let's review what happened to force CA to fluoridate all cities with more than 10,000 water connections.

As mentioned, David Nelson helped write the fluoridation mandate law that was not put up for public vote and was passed by the State Legislature anyway. Nelson in discussions with us citizens in L.A. responded to complaints about the Hooper Bay, AK fluoride water poisoning disaster by saying "that was not the fault of water fluoridation."  I said why?  He said "because the wife of the man killed, it was her fault". Why?  "Because she is a nurse and should have known that when he vomited the water he drank, that it must have had too much fluoride and she should not have given him more water when he asked for it". 

 

Note: Dominic Smith, the deceased Coast Guardsman at the time, was very thirsty when the fluoride overfeed (to about 100 ppm) occured from a fluoride-corroded valve, and there are many causes of vomiting besides high fluoride in water, and Nelson always claims that fluoridation is totally safe for all consumers at all times.

 

So as the author of an article on the incident, I responded by saying "do you mean this event that poisoned 300 people was the wife's fault, not the fault of the water district for a fluoridation overfeed? Did she go around town and purposely give water to all these victims, really?"  He caught himself in his own false story and pulled the usual reponse "Richard, I just do what the CDC tells me to do" and abruptly ended the discussion.

 

This of course does not mean the CDC wanted the man to be killed. It does though mean that people are harmed from the operations required for water fluoridation and that officials in charge are the first to invent fraudulent stories to protect the bone fluoridation program which itself causes harm, is useless in preventing caries, and is illegal.

 

I found that Nelson truly believes in his heart that whole body fluoridation of kids is good for them. He even accused us, for opposing fluoridation, as hating children for depriving them of good dental care.  I'm not kidding!  (And no, this is not a tirade, it is a summary of facts). Nelson is now retired after taking 1 million yearly to force cities in CA to fluoridate. He had been convicted of dental malpractice and after leaving dentistry he took a job with the CA DPH to promote fluoridation of the State of CA, as desired for the country by dental officials in the Oral Health Division of the CDC..

Get the picture?

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 763 of 1,450

Please understand that the Safe Drinking Water Act, prohibiting any National requirement for substances placed into water, includes not only drugs, but any and ALL substances that do not sanitize the water--period.

The CA Dept. of Pub. Health officer David Nelson, who forced L.A. to fluoridate, knew full well of this stipulation in the SDWA. When asked why he thought mandatory fluoridation in CA and other States, as requested by officials in the Oral Health Division of the CDC, was legal, he said "we don't force people to drink the water, that is up to them". In other words this fluoridationist thinks he is not violating the SDWA because everyone has the freedom to NOT drink the treated water if they wish.

What this argument fails to grasp is that the SDWA prohibits a National requirement for the very addition itself into water. It does not stipulate a prohibition on forcing people to drink. It does not stipulate whether anyone drinks the water or not. It prohibits adding substances into water by National decree.

Officials in the CDC OHD request State Depts. of Public  Health inform cities of the need to fluoridate in their long quest to fluoridate the country. Now that 70% of water districts participate in this bone fluoridation program, and many states such as CA have laws making it a mandate, this National program violates the SDWA , whether people avoid ingesting the water or not. The water is being tainted daily and in violation of the law.

Nelson refused to discuss this any further and gave his typical reply "I just do what the CDC tells me, Richard."

There were 200 people attending the official public input session the day before fluoridation was to start. Only one person was there to endorse it and that was Nelson, who participated in drafting the CA mandate law and who ordered the Met.Water Dist. to follow that law.

Must be nice to break Federal law and then argue that you followed it, because after all if people drink the treated water and get dental fluorosis, that was their decision. Nelson is now retired.

The LA basin along with North San Diego County all became fluoridated by the MWD the following day in 2007.  A total con job, and totally against the intent of the SDWA which fluoridationists have also altered over the years to fit what they want, not what the country wants.

And yet I'm the one accused of being outside reality?

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 764 of 1,450

The FDA defines a drug as a product intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment or prevention of disease and as a product intended to affect the structure or body of a person or an animal.

However it is delivered to a body does not alter the fact that fluoride, which is intended to affect the structure of teeth, is a drug by this authoritative definition.

Delivering fluoride to a population by way of community water fluoridation (CWF) should not conflate the drug (fluoride) and method of delivery (by water) into a new entity called ‘optimally fluoridated water’ and ludicrously assert, as does DavidF, that no federal U.S. agency considers ‘optimally fluoridated water’ a "drug."

It is also wrong to assert that no federal agency considers any of the ingredients of CWF as a drug, e.g. the FDA classes sodium fluoride – a sometimes ingredient of CWF – as a drug.

Iodine is the drug ingredient of some salts and folic acid the drug ingredient of some breads.  

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 765 of 1,450

David,

 

Stick to the facts rather than attacking people.  Just because you don't know something doesn't mean the other person is a liar.  Try to be professional.  Try to be factual and scientific.  Everything you don't know, is not automatically a lie.

 

Contact the EPA with the FOIA number.  Ask them.

 

And what does your fluoride toothpaste label say?   "Drug Facts."

 

Fluoride added to water did not go through the regulatory process.  Rather a health claim was permitted based on other agencies, not the science.

 

Contact the FDA and ask if ingesting fluoride with the intent to prevent disease is a drug.  And ask if it is diluted in water with the same intent, is it a drug?

 

Ask.  Do your homework.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 766 of 1,450

We've also gone over the other complaint before. Dr. Groth of the FDA originally ruled that fluoride levels were not to be listed on bottled water because that would give the public the impression that fluoride belongs in water.

And labeling bottled water with fluoride a drug would condemn many water supplies that contain fluoride naturally in calcium-rich water supplies.

AGAIN, the FDA ruled that adding fluoride into water is an uncontrolled use of an unapproved drug (letter from FDA chief Edna Lovering, 1963). In 1963 there were no "links" to this fact. But the absence of links does not change the fact.

Understand?

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 767 of 1,450

Arguing with a fluoridation advocate is pretty bizarre.  Whoever the one here is, he acts like he is the authority on the subject but yet provides no credentials, and nevertheless accuses me of not being forthcoming with credentials. Pretty slick.

The latest version of the article that is now under attack was an invited book chapter that updated the orginal article published under rigorous peer review at the Jour. of Env. and Pub. Health 2013. I stand by my work.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 768 of 1,450

We've gone over this before (and I won, I didn't "lose").

My affiliation with UCSD is long-standing. I completed my BA and PhD there and have done graduate work there over the years. The listing of UCSD on the original article (peer reviewed by Dr. Stephen Peckham for the Journal of Environmental and Public Health) is through the late Dr. Andrew Benson. He assisted with the article and provided help with it eventually being published. He also taught on the toxicity of synthetic fluoride compounds in my earlier education. He completed his Ph.D. at UC Berkeley on the fluoridated derivatives of thyroxine. His work lead to the Nobel Prize in biochemistry for  discovering the carbon fixation reaction in plant photosynthesis and the development of the Calvin Benson cycle.

Since his passing I no longer work with anyone at UCSD other than the alumni association. So what?

From what is stated, one would assume that because I cited the works, of Ziegelbecker and of Teotia and Teotia and of Yiamouyiannis and of Sutton, that their work must be rejected?  And suddenly my data on the conversion of fluoride to HF over a broad pH range (down to stomach pH levels) is also not peer reviewed and somehow suspect?  How cute.

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 769 of 1,450

Dr. Sauerheber, 

 

Once again you have shifted the issue at hand.  We are not talking about what is essential.  That is a discussion that you have already lost previously in this thread.  We are talking about what is considered a "drug."  

 

Again, there is no federal agency which considers optimally fluoridated water, or any of its ingredients, a drug.  Again, for the 4th time, this is a label from the FDA regulated product "Dannon's Fluoride to Go" fluoridated bottled water https://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beverages/9231/2

Where does the word "drug" appear on this label?  The FDA doen't consider this product to be a drug in any sense of the word.  Only you do.

 

Regarding your link.  This was to a non-peer reviewed paper that you wrote.  On it you claimed affiliation to the Department of Chemistry at the University of California.  That is a lie.  You have no affiliation with the the Chemistry Department at any University. 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 770 of 1,450

Sorry but folic acid and vitamin D are essential vitamins,  essential for normal health. They have nothing to do with toxic fluoride, which is not a component of normal human blood and which is not a nutrient, having no physiologic purpose of any kind. The absence of fluoride does not cause dental caries. Caries are caused by leaving sugars on teeth so that streptococcus.mutans metabolic acids dissolve enamel.

 

And of course the USP does not list fluoridated water as a drug because water itself is not a drug. But the fluoride added into the water from USP sodium fluoride is already certainly labeled a drug.

 

And again, whether fluoride infused into water to treat dental caries is argued  to be only a mineral and not a drug can be debated, but what cannot be debated is the fact that the forced whole body fluoridation of citizens is harmful, useless, and illegal as published in references previously submitted (Top 10 Contributions on Environmental Health, Chapter 8, AVID Science, 2018) at: http://www.avidscience.com/book/top-10-contributions-on-environmental-health/

 

 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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