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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Carrie Anne says, "

"BTW: On the topic of 'holistic dentistry' and cherry picking, the Wikipedia entry David cited lays out the following basic principles of the holistic approach to dentistry: 

  • Proper nutrition for the prevention and reversal of degenerative dental disease
  • Avoidance and elimination of toxins from dental materials
  • Prevention and treatment of dental malocclusion (bite problems=physical imbalance)
  • Prevention and treatment of gum disease at its biological basis"

Response:  Yes, Carrie Anne, these are the PRINCIPLES of holistic dentistry.  Principles are opinions and approaches.  More relevant to empiricism and science, the article also says,

 

"Many practices and opinions among alternative dentists are criticized as not being evidence-based by the mainstream dental community and skeptics of alternative medicine in general."

 

A principle, or an approach, which is not evidence based is worthless.  I didn't cherry-pick.  I didn't cite holistic dentistry "principles" because they are irrelevant.  The principle behind Crystal Healing is to free the flow the energy throughout the body and allow healing.  So what.  It doesn't work.

 

On the other hand, this would be an example of an evidence based statement from the Wiki/Holistic Dentistry article:  " . .  fees charged by such practitioners are generally several times higher than those of mainstream dentists."

 

Evidence based statements are relevant.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1032 of 1,343

Carrie Anne says, "

"BTW: On the topic of 'holistic dentistry' and cherry picking, the Wikipedia entry David cited lays out the following basic principles of the holistic approach to dentistry: 

  • Proper nutrition for the prevention and reversal of degenerative dental disease
  • Avoidance and elimination of toxins from dental materials
  • Prevention and treatment of dental malocclusion (bite problems=physical imbalance)
  • Prevention and treatment of gum disease at its biological basis"

Response:  Yes, Carrie Anne, these are the PRINCIPLES of holistic dentistry.  Principles are opinions and approaches.  More relevant to empiricism and science, the article also says,

 

"Many practices and opinions among alternative dentists are criticized as not being evidence-based by the mainstream dental community and skeptics of alternative medicine in general."

 

A principle, or an approach, which is not evidence based is worthless.  I didn't cherry-pick.  I didn't cite holistic dentistry "principles" because they are irrelevant.  The principle behind Crystal Healing is to free the flow the energy throughout the body and allow healing.  So what.  It doesn't work.

 

What is relevant, and evidenced based, about Holistic Dentistry is this:  " . .  fees charged by such practitioners are generally several times higher than those of mainstream dentists."  

 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1033 of 1,343

"... evidence has shown that these early researchers had it backwards. It now appears that fluoride acts only on teeth that have already erupted... there are more direct ways of bringing fluoride into contact with tooth enamel. The most common of these is the use of fluoride toothpastes."  - Lahey Clinic website (similar statement on many other medical websites) 

 

“…. for decades we have believed that fluoride in small doses has no adverse effects on health. …. But more and more scientists are seriously questioning the benefits of fluoride even in small amounts.” -  UNICEF in Waterfront, Issue 13, December 1999

 

However, despite significant evidence of harm and lack of proof of efficicacy validated by credible objections from reputable organizations and experts who include Dr. Bill Osmunson, Dr. Richard Sauerheber & chemist Susan Kanen on this forum thread, the malignant medical myth of fluoridation persists because not only is there a profitable business model built on fluoridation, fluoridation promotion is profitable to many advocates as well as apparently affording some with the emotional satisfaction of engaging in online harrassment. 

 

Nevertheless, this isn't really about teeth. The issue is fluoride consumption is medically contraindicated for many with inflammatory, immune system, thyroid and renal disease as well as being ill advised for vulnerable populations who include pregnant women & their fetuses, bottle-fed babies & young children, the elderly and any in fragile health.

 

Consequently, fluoridation policy is an immoral medical mandate that causes misery in millions of consumers who include senior citizens. 

 

 “… subsets of the population may be unusually susceptible to the toxic effects of fluoride and its compounds … include the elderly, people with osteoporosis, people with deficiencies of calcium, magnesium, vitamin C, and/or protein, and people with kidney problems.…” - Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR, 1993)

 

Family.jpg

 

BTW: On the topic of 'holistic dentistry' and cherry picking, the Wikipedia entry David cited includes the purpose of holistic dentistry as adding to dental school curriculum with  'additional options for treatment with a primary goal to teach and to learn' following the basic principles of the holistic approach to dentistry: 

  • Proper nutrition for the prevention and reversal of degenerative dental disease
  • Avoidance and elimination of toxins from dental materials
  • Prevention and treatment of dental malocclusion (bite problems=physical imbalance)
  • Prevention and treatment of gum disease at its biological basis

That some Wiki author inserted an opinion that fees might be higher and disparages the field doesn't make a healthy diet, avoidance of poison and searching for root cause remedies to gum disease rather than total reliance on treatment of the symptoms an invalid approach to dentistry - it just makes it more holistic.  

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1034 of 1,343

Bill O,  You say: 

 

“I asked you for the names of  reputable scientific organizations you accept.

 

You provided Wikipedia.  Wikipedia never crossed my mind as either scientific or reputable.”

 

And, "Any other organizations you accept as "scientifically reputable?"    Are there any other scientists in the world, besides you, who accept Wikipedia as scientifically reputable?“

 

Response:  Thank you, Bill, for proving my point that you cherry-pick information and take things out of context.  I did not cite Wikipedia as a reputable scientific organization.  I used Wikipedia and Quackwatch to expose problems with your so-called reputable organization, Holistic Dentistry, which uses pseudo-scientific approaches which have never been scientifically proven, and indeed can be harmful to patients.  And they over-charge their clients. 

 

I cited the Mayo Clinic, the American Cancer Society, and the World Health Organization as reputable scientific organizations . . all of which support community water fluoridation.

 

(My comment for your review:  “ . .  if I don’t see them listed on Quackwatch that’s a plus.  For example, you won’t see the Mayo Clinic on Quackwatch.  The Mayo Clinic is a reputable organization . . and they endorse water fluoridation.

 

The American Cancer Society isn’t listed on Quackwatch.  That is also a reputable organization, which, by the way, also endorses water fluoridation.   

 

How about the World Health Organization.  I can’t find an article about the WHO on Quackwatch . . and guess what.  They also endorse community water fluoridation.”)

07-25-2018 11:19 AM  Please, feel free to review the comment.

 

Do you seriously believe that any reader of this thread is unable to go back and review comments for themselves?  Wow!

 

By the way, How much did Mercola fund the Fluoride Action Network while you were the director of that fringe organization?

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1035 of 1,343

Bill O, you say,

 

"I asked you for the names of  reputable scientific organizations you accept.

 You provided Wikipedia.  Wikipedia never crossed my mind as either scientific or reputable.  . . .

. . . Any other organizations you accept as "scientifically reputable?"    Are there any other scientists in the world, besides you, who accept Wikipedia as scientifically reputable?"

 

Response:  Thank you, Bill, for proving my point that you cherry-pick informaton, and take things out of context.  You asked me which organizations I consider reputable.  I cited the World Health Organization, the Mayo Clinic, and the American Cancer Society.  

 

(My quotes from my response:  " The Mayo Clinic is a reputable organization . . and they endorse water fluoridation. . . . . The American Cancer Society isn’t listed on Quackwatch.  That is also a reputable organization, which, by the way, also endorses water fluoridation.   . . . . . How about the World Health Organization.  I can’t find an article about the WHO on Quackwatch . . and guess what.  They also endorse community water fluoridation.")  07-25-2018 11:19 AM

 

I used the Wikipedia article to expose the problems with your so-called reputable organization which is opposed to water fluoridation.  According to Wikipedia and Quackwatch, Homeopathic Dentists, who are also opposed to Water Fluoridation use pseudo-scientific approaches which have never been scientifically proven, and indeed can be harmful to health, and they over charge their gullable clients.  I did not cite Wikipedia as a scientifically reputable organization, and anyone who can read knows that.

 

Do you seriously believe that any objective reader of this thread is unable to go back and look at previous comments?  Wow!

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1036 of 1,343

David, 

 

I asked you for the names of  reputable scientific organizations you accept.

 

You provided Wikipedia.  Wikipedia never crossed my mind as either scientific or reputable.  Thanks for letting me know your opinion.  I need say no more. . . . .    But I will.  Wikipedia is based on people's opinions and not primary research.  I don't know of any scientists who accept Wikipedia as reputable science.

 

Any other organizations you accept as "scientifically reputable?"    Are there any other scientists in the world, besides you, who accept Wikipedia as scientifically reputable?

 

May I suggest you review the primary evidence for yourself.  Trust encourages a person to be gullible.

 

By the way, more and more of main stream dentistry are using holistic dental procedures.  Often called other terms such as cosmetics, but the holistic procedures are grounded in the leading edge of science.  Tradition changes with a few brave people stepping out from the herd and trying to improve the system.  The least expensive alternative is not one size which fits all humans.  

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1037 of 1,343

David, 

 

I asked you for the names of who YOU think are reputable scientific organizations.

 

You have listed Wikipedia.  That organization never even crossed my mind as either scientific or reputable.  Thanks for letting me know.    

 

Any other organizations you accept as "scientifically reputable?"    Are there any other scientists in the world, besides you, who accept Wikipedia as scientifically reputable?

 

May I suggest you review the primary evidence for yourself.

 

By the way, more and more of main stream dentistry are using holistic dental proceedures.  Often called other terms, but the holistic proceedures are grounded in the leading edge of science.  Tradition changes with a few brave people stepping out from the hurd and trying to improve the system.  The least expensive alternative is not one size which fits all humans.  

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1038 of 1,343

BillO

By the way, for anyone interested in what you consider to be a "reputable organization," here is a Wikipedia article on Holistic Dentistry:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holistic_dentistry

 

From the article:  "Some critics of holistic dentistry practice also note that the fees charged by such practitioners are generally several times higher than those of mainstream dentists. Some claim that alternative dentistry is merely the exploitation of niche health beliefs and gimmicks to justify higher fees."

 

"A significant part of the critique of holistic dentistry is related to the unsubstantiated use of certain services and treatments, many of which have either been investigated and found ineffective, or have not been researched enough to be declared safe and effective for practice."

 

So, when I say that there is not one reputable scientific or health organization in the world which opposes Community Water Fluoridation, and you give me the IABDM, holistic dentists, which you claim is a reputable health organization which does oppose water fluoridation . . . 

 

Well, any intelligent reader can see your comment for what it was.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1039 of 1,343

Bill O says, "But again you evade science and prefer tabloids."

Response:  Anyone who cares to read through this entire thread can see your defense of cherry-picked and out-of-context conclusions for what it is.  You have gone round and round with Drs. Slott, Hayne, and Johnson.  You have been proven wrong again, and again, and again by them.

 

Dr. Sauerheber and Carrie Anne have been proven wrong countless times by me because of his false claims about the Safe Drinking Water Act, FDA policy, labeling on FDA regulated products, the relationship between the EPA, FDA and water fluoridation. . I mean it never ends with you guys.

 

So I encourage any reader who is curious about your ideas of science to read the back-and-forth between you, Sauerheber, Slott, Johnson, and Hayne, and Dr. Joe Mullen.  We don’t need to do that anymore.

 

Right now I am examining your motives.  You were the Director of the Fluoride Action Network and nobody seems to know how much money Mercola funded to you.  Well, somebody must know. 

 

You ask, “What organizations do you think are reputable?” 

 

Response:  Well, for starters, if I don’t see them listed on Quackwatch that’s a plus.  For example, you won’t see the Mayo Clinic on Quackwatch.  The Mayo Clinic is a reputable organization . . and they endorse water fluoridation.

 

The American Cancer Society isn’t listed on Quackwatch.  That is also a reputable organization, which, by the way, also endorses water fluoridation.   

 

How about the World Health Organization.  I can’t find an article about the WHO on Quackwatch . . and guess what.  They also endorse community water fluoridation.

 

So, when I say there are no reputable scientific or health organizations in the world which oppose water fluoridation, I mean reputable.  Maybe you don’t believe in Western Science (as you plug away on your computer), and maybe that’s why you would cite Holistic Dentistry.  But I like my dentist who believes in Western Science.  It’s working out for me.  I’m 59 years old, still have all my teeth, and have only had one cavity in my entire life.  How’s your Holistic dentist working out for you?

 

I hope this helps answer your question about my standards for what I regard as a reputable organization.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1040 of 1,343

David.  

Repeating again.  I dont know how much anyone donates.  That is confidential and I did not ask.  Profluoride organizations get tax and corporate money.  But again you evade science and prefer tabloids.  

 

What organizations do you think are reputable?

 

Quack watch is certainly not reputable.  

 

Bill Osmunson. DDS MPH

 

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