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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 801 of 1,248

I'm looking at the bar graph. There are there categories in each bar and the mainstream category of salmon returns is what was decimated and remained so all through the years reported, to 2017, just as I said.

The city of Sacramento fluoridates all water supplies to the city, not just some of the water. Just like all other cities that fluoridate, the wastewater contains the same concentration of fluoride as what was put into it at the fluoridation facililty. All discharged water from municipal pipes comes from comercial and residential users that is fully fluoridated. There is no other water source to dilute it. The 1 ppm fluuoridated waste water is discharged directly into the river because the sanitizing treatment is not able to remove fluoride. Fluoride ion is a sphere, the same size as a water molecule, and cannot be filtered.  I don't need to travel by boat to the discharge output point and take a sample of the discharge water to know that it is fluoridated. 

No one can say or has said that only fluoridation is entirely responsible for the full collapse of the salmon fishing industry in Sacramento, and that includes me. Fluoride discharges into the river where they spawn contributed its share to the collapse. It was the last obviously added contributor before the collapse became complete.  Fluoridation began many months before, not during or after, the discovered total collapse. My memory recalls the collapse being full and reported by fishermen and Pacific Fisheries and the news media in late 2010. The fluoridation of Sacramento had already begun many months prior to this, and if I recall in early 2010. The point is that fluoridation was ongoing prior to the reported full collapse.

Fluoridation is still ongoing and those who conduct it care less about the fact that salmon are adversely affected by low level fluoride in water and that Sacramento River salmon are abnormally reduced in number.  Fluoridation promoters appear so gravely concerned about caries reduction that documented effects on human bone (and any effects the discharged wastewater may have on  salmon popoulations) are not a concern.

But eating and drinking fluoride in any amount do not lead to lowered incidence of caries, and adverse effects on human health as well as environmental issues for the treated wastewater are indeed the concern. Fluoridation is unnecessary, harmful, and must be halted.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Frequent Social Butterfly
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 802 of 1,248

Dr. Sauerheber,

 

Now you are down to, "it is ludicrous to claim that fluoridation discharges have zero effect on salmon," from your original claim that fluoridation was responsible for the collapse.  

 

You have a theory that effluent with some amount of fluoride in it (now it's) in part was responsible for this.  You have no idea what the average daily discharge is into the river.  You have no idea what the flow of the river is at the point of discharge.  You have no idea what the amount of fluoride is in the effluent, because it's never been measured.  This is important, fundamental data.  

 

You said that fluoridation began in 2010.  

 

Thank you for your link http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586  .  On it we see a bar graph which confirms what I already said.  Chinook salmon returns hit an all time low in 2009.  In 2010, the same year that fluoridation began, salmon abundance improved.  And, as I previously said, it improved until 2013.  Take a look at the bar graph.

 

You have no knowledge of even the most fundamental data required to make such an outrageous claim.  Moreover, historical trends of salmon runs completely debunk the idea.  

 

There is nothing left to be said about it.  

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Regular Social Butterfly
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 803 of 1,248

The EPA does not regulate community water fluoridation. The agency prevents cities from infusing fluoride to a level exceeding the MCL's--that's it. They do not monitor caries effects of water fluoridation and they take no responsiblilty or liability for any city that decides to fluoridate its people for assumed dental effect.

Likewise the EPA did not know beforehand that discharging fluoridated water into the Sacramento river, or any other river where salmon need to swim to spawn, would be totally harmless to fish. The EPA didn't even consider this concern before fluridation was allowed (not prohibited) by the agency. 

This mirrors what happened in 1945 when fluoridation was argued to be a success in decreasing dental caries, without considering what happened to the bones of residents. It was later found that the presence of thickened bones seen only on Xray examination by experts, increased in incidence in fluoridated consumers compared to non-fluoridated. And decay after several years when all tooth erupt is the same in control and F treated cities.

Fluoridation has been ongoing without proof of safety for 70 years now, all to the detriment of those who freely drink it. We now have an epidemic of hip fractures in the elderly with 1/3 million cases annually, and of hip, knee, and elbow replacement surgeries. And why would you expect anything else when 70% of U.S. water districts fluoridate the bones of their customers without permission? 

The EPA, CDC or anyone else did not prove that fluoridation of people would have no effects on brain or brain development either before the policy was instituted.  

The CDC now admits that systemic fluoride from the blood has no ablity to decrease dental decay. And topical fluoride from water at 0.7 ppm is 2,000 times less concentrated than in toothpaste with no ability to decrease dental decay, and saliva fluoride which bathes teeth continuously at 0.016 ppm in a 1 ppm fluoridated city, 94,000 times less concentrated than in toothpaste, is also worthless. Fluoridated water is useless, harmful, illegal, and its promotion is a false policy. The problem is difficult to overcome becaue of false beliefs that are widespread, but neverthtless deserves to be overcome.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 804 of 1,248

We've already gone over this. There is no media report that blames the collapse on fluoride discharges that occurred prior to it. I made the claim, not the news media. The news once tried to claim that it is not the fluoridoatn of the water becasue the collapse occurred before fluoridaiotn, but htis is false. The south section of the city began fluoridating before the event that caused the complete collapse of the fishing industry on the river.  The public was not told about fluoridating until the rest of the city did so nearlya year later.

In the 1970's and 80's the salmon leaving the mainstream River routienly numbered 100,000. The number began to decline in 2007 because of, it is argued, a severe drought. This is probably ture among other factors as well. But notice that since Sacramento became fluoridated with a fluoridated water discharge pipe in the river, the number in the main stream has remained dismal until 2017, at or less than 10,000 per season. This is a 90% collapse of the fish that caused a 100% collapse in the fishing industry with loss of thousands of jobs.  This is reported in:  http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586 but the authors do not know anything about fluoridation or when it began so it is not discussed of course.

We only have an incomplete view of what actually goes on because so many variables are in play, but the point is that it is ludicrous to claim that fluoridation discharges have zero effect on salmon in the face of the Univ. of Oregon data, and flatly false to claim that fluoridation only happened after the complete collapse. And it is absurd to continue fluoridation of the river when the salmon industry has been so destroyed.

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 805 of 1,248

Excuse me? I explained the truth, which is beng ignored by fluoridation promoters. 1 ppm fluoricated water lifetime causes bone fluoride to accumulate  to thousands of mg/kg in bone, higher than in fluoridated toothpaste, where it does not belong and where it alters the crystal structure of bone. The NRC data proved that levels above this increase hip fractures compared to the incidence at 1 ppm. This does not translate into the idea that no increased fractures occur at 1 ppm. Thatl is absurd. The NRC did not look at exposures less than 1 ppm. So the clakin that Dr. Osmunson is somehow flawed is incorrect.

 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 806 of 1,248

RS:  "This does not detract from the claim that fluoride discharges were a final straw that completed the approximately 90% collapse in the first place that the news media reported which caused salmon fishing industries to shut down."

 

Response:  Please provide a link to a news media report which stated this.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 807 of 1,248

RS, your quote:  "Disagreement on this cannot come from the fact that there are no measured fluoride levels near the discharge point source because anhyone whol clailms the discharges did not affect salmon wold have the same problem. Prove it by measuring the levels at the discharge point to demonstrate that salmon were not exposed to higher fluoride levels than the 0.2 ppm anywhere in the river where they had to migrate."

 

Response:  We can prove it by using the same simple math formula that Mr. Joe Carroll used to prove that salmon were not affected in the Columbia River by effluent discharge.  https://ilikemyteeth.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Water-Expert-Letter-Fish-Impact-2005.pdf

 

You made the claim.  It's up to you to prove it.  You are posting under a thread entitled "Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action."  You are posting here to press any possible argument which might convince the AARP to support your fringe position on water fluoridaton.  Since you refuse to prove it by using a simple math formula, you must already know that the math does not support your argument.  

 

To your second comment regarding the 2006 NRC, you agree with me.  Your quote:  "The NRC committee was not tasked with assessing community water fluoridation, for either  effectiveness or for safety."

 

Therefore, when Dr. Bill cites a "Position Statement" against water fluoridation from the iaomt which cites a passage from the 2006 NRC, which you just said was not "tasked with assessing CWF, and that passage stated that "under certain circumstances" bone fractures may occur . . .

 

And those "circumstances" consisted of drinking water at over 5 ½ times the optimal level for a lifetime.   It is more likely to cause these problems in the population than drinking water with 1 ppm F, (which is also over the optimal level) over the course of a lifetime. 

 

Your lengthy meandering comment could have easily made the point that, yes, the iaomt Position Statement was indeed deceptive by citing irrelevant and misleading facts regarding water fluoridation in its statement against this health initiative.  The NRC never said that drinking optimally fluoridated water would enhance the likelihood of bone fractures.  

 

Dr. Bill has presented a misleading statement in his efforts to sway the reader, and he has called it good science.  

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Regular Social Butterfly
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 808 of 1,248

I see a report from a salmon fishing tour boat company that now after 8 years since the collapse salmon appear to be increasing in number. But how much of this is advertising to attract more customers I don't know. It is not a scientific assessment but let's hope it is real. This is in the Red Bluff area which is north of Sacramento. So this is good news but again it is possible, as stated before, that those salmon that could spawn in water at levels between 0.2 and 1 ppm (due to fluoridated water discharges) could imprint at this newer set point to be able to return to that water again later..

This does not detract from the claim that fluoride discharges were a final straw that completed the approximately 90% collapse in the first place that the news media reported which caused salmon fishing industries to shut down.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 809 of 1,248

The returning salmon population in the Central Valley, CA declined to the lowest level in recorded history at merely 60,000 total returns in 2010.  The construction of dams, increased urbanization, plus possible pollution from pesticides are all believed to have been progressively lowering the population until then. Fluoride discharges were another final contribution. In the Sacramento River specifically, which is separate from all the other rivers in the central valley where fluoride discharges are not conducted, the collapse was described in public news sources as essentially complete. The difference between a complete collapse and a huge collapse I attribute to the fluoride discharges.

Disagreement on this cannot come from the fact that there are no measured fluoride levels near the discharge point source because anhyone whol clailms the discharges did not affect salmon wold have the same problem. Prove it by measuring the levels at the discharge point to demonstrate that salmon were not exposed to higher fluoride levels than the 0.2 ppm anywhere in the river where they had to migrate.   Since no such data is available to anyone, logic dictates that the dischages which are significant at the source sealed the collapse to its low level becasue salmon imprinting is so exaquisitelty sensitive. The number of salmon returning to the Sacramento across the discharge zone is not returning to normal as I have ever seen reported. The other rivers in the Central Valley do not have a fluoridated water discharge zone and do not change the argument simply becaue their returns are increasing..

And I am not posting here to discuss fluoridation. I am here to refute false claims about it and to explain what it actually is, a bone fluoridaiton program that does not decrease dental decay and that is a violation of Federal wate law. Nothing needs to be discussed. For example read the Journal of Environmental and Public Health 439490 2013 for a description of what it is and the laws it violates.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 810 of 1,248

"The finding supports the epidemiological results that water fluoridation might be responsible for the increasing rate of osteoporosis in postmenopausal women.”  - Kakei et al. (2016)

 

 “Existing data indicate that subsets of the population may be unusually susceptible to the toxic effects of fluoride and its compounds. These populations include the elderly, people with deficiencies of calcium, magnesium, and/or vitamin C, and people with cardiovascular and kidney problems… Post menopausal women and elderly men in fluoridated communities may also be at risk of fractures.” U.S. Department of Health and Human Services in “Toxicological Profile on Fluoride” (1993)

 

Position Papers are reasoned opinions and much more disciplined than political endorsements of policy. The IAOMT 2017 Position Paper Against Fluoride Use with over 500 citations can be downloaded from their webpage. The 2011 LULAC Resolution against fluoridation is based on evidence of disproportionate harm to Latinos and human rights. They are just two of the professional organizatons opposed to fluoridation based on evidence and representative of thousands of doctors, dentists, lawyers, and other professionals who have done their due diligence. 

 

Scientific evidence of harm to senior citizens includes 21st century studies documenting fluoride as causing or worsening kidney disease, brittle arthritic bones, heart disease and dementia, many published this decade. This information is verifiable and validated. It cannot be disappeared by long-winded rhetorical attacks by fluoride advocates.  

 

Dr. Bill Osmunson on this forum is one of thousands of  doctors and dentists who formerly endorsed fluoridation who changed their minds based on evidence. Although many still follow the bullet points prepared by marketing gurus and fervant advocacy groups, thyroid and kidney doctors especially advise their patients to avoid fluoride. Many seniors, such as myself and about 30 others who have particiapted on this AARP forum, testify that our health improves when we avoid fluoride; these are not anecdotes, it is our medical testimony. Consequently, there is no consensus of benefit and substantial evidence and opinion upon which AARP can base a resolution opposing fluoridation as an immoral medication of vulnerable populations who include senior citizens harmed by fluoride consumption

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