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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Steve,

 

There are so many flaws in your posts, it is hard to know where to start.

 

For example you state,  "A zero level of arsenic is neither attainable  nor likely to be desirable.  The EPA maximum allowable level of arsenic in drinking water is 10 parts per billion."

 

I agree zero level of arsenic is not likely.  However, the EPA has zero as the Maximum Contaminant Level Goal (MCLG).  What scientific evidence can you provide the EPA is in error and some arsenic is desirable?  

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Scientists. . . good scientists. . . are not dogmatic and absolute, non-negotiable.  Good scientists understand that not all evidence, research, facts are known.  We are always challenging the evidence and questioning the theories.   The terms "ignorant"  "always" "never" "established" are terms to be avoided.  Camping on assumptions is hazardous because 50% of what science has "established" is wrong and we don't know which 50%.  An open mind is essential.

 

I want to break the concept of fluoridation into small sub-topics for more clarity.

 

Lets talk about one aspect of dosage, which involves how much are we getting? and how much do we want?

 

1.   CONTROLLED DOSAGE FROM WATER:  The concentration of fluoride in water is a concentration, not a dosage.  Concentration of fluoride in water makes no "dosage" sense unless we know how much water the patient is ingesting.  Some ingest almost no water and others ingest over 10 liters a day.  Dosage of fluoride from water is uncontrolled because the amount of water consumed by each individual is not controlled.  Water is a poor medium for dispensing any substance used to treat humans or animals.

 

2.   TOTAL FLUORIDE EXPOSURE:  In all discussions on fluoride, total fluoride exposure is essential.  Individuals consume a great deal of fluoride from many sources.  Swallowing toothpaste, pesticides, post-harvest fumigants, medications, and much more.  A discussion of fluoridation MUST consider all sources of fluoride exposure, not just water.  A statement such as a Harvard Professor tried to use, "water fluoridation has never been shown to cause any harm," is deceptive.  In fact, I don't know any human study which has isolated out only water fluoridation as the only source of fluoride exposure.  

 

3.  MANY ARE INGESTING TOO MUCH FLUORIDE:  NHANES clearly shows a huge increase in dental fluorosis to 60% of adolescents in 2011-2012, a biomarker of excess fluoride exposure.  Note the EPA graph below:

00001.jpgEPA 2010  The US EPA Relative Source Contribution of fluoride in 2010 shows fluoride daily intake is excessive (percentage above the black line) for about a quarter to a third of children.  

The EPA ignored the 10% of children drinking more water.  

The EPA ignored infants below six months of age.  

The EPA proposed, without support, claiming fluoride is a third safer (RfD).

 

 

And we have not considered, yet, "HOW MUCH FLUORIDE IS BENEFICIAL?"

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1203 of 1,310

“CaryAnne”

 

Karen, please stop fear-mongering about skeletal fluorosis.  Aside from the mound of misinformation you’ve posted, you’ve clearly demonstrated that you have no idea as to the difference between dose and concentration of fluoride, much less the effect of either.

 

Once again, skeletal fluorosis is not a concern in regard to optimally fluoridated water.  If it was, this disorder would be rampant in the nearly 75% fluoridated US by now.

 

From the US Department of Health and Human Services:

 

“Several of the more recent reviews on the safety of fluoride intake have discussed skeletal fluorosis, which is extremely rare in the United States. Epidemiological studies in the U.S. of communities with naturally occurring fluoride in the water 3.3 to 8 times the amount in optimally adjusted water supplies found no evidence of skeletal fluorosis. Pages 45-47 of the 1991 Department of Health and Human Services document Review of Fluoride: Benefits and Risks discusses the topic of skeletal fluorosis topic in more detail and provides references. Only 5 cases of skeletal fluorosis have ever been reported in the U.S. In these cases, the total fluoride intake was 15 to 20 mg./fluoride per day for 20 years.”

 

https://aspe.hhs.gov/cdc-—-fluoridation-hhs-response-rfr

 

 

In regard to your other claims:

 

1.  Your attempt to equate your own ignorance of the facts with the knowledge of all other seniors.....i.e. “we seniors understand”...... is an insult to the intelligence of seniors everywhere.  Unsubstantiated claims as to what you think you know, have no foundation in fact, much less any valid evidence to support them.

 

2.  Because a study has the word “fluoride” in it, does not make it relevant to the minuscule amount of fluoride in optimally fluoridated water.

 

a.  In the 1991 study you cite, the osteoporosis treatment consisted of administering 22 mg of fluoride per day.  Yeah.... no kidding.....with  that incredibly massive dose of fluoride, there would undoubtedly be problems.  

 

The amount of fluoride obtained from consuming one liter of optimally fluoridated is 0.7 mg.

 

b. Neither is the  2002 study you cite of any relevance.  It is in regard to guidelines in the management of osteoporosis.  Water fluoridation is not intended, or expected to prevent osteoporosis.  Fluoridation is simply the adjustment of the level of existing fluoride in water to that concentration at which has been determined to result in significantly reduced amount of dental decay in the populations served by that water.

 

c. In your third cite.....an opinion piece posted  on an antifluoridationist website.....long time fluoridation opponent, Hardy Limeback, expresses his “concern” about fluoridation effects on human bone.  Limeback’s own 2010 study demonstrates there to be no effect on human bone from fluoride at the optimal level at which water is fluoridated:

 

“Many decades of epidemiological studies have shown minImal evidence of any effects of fluoride administration on bone, and it is therefore very unlikely that municipally fluoridated water affects adults with healthy bone. In this study, no
effects of fluoride on mineralization (by BSE) and no substantive negative effects of fluoride administration on bone mechanical properties were observed”
 


—The Long-term Effects of Water Fluoridation on the Human Skeleton

Chacra, Limeback, et al.

Journal of dental research 89(11):1219-23 · November 2010

 

3.   Unsubstantiated claims of some phantom “science” you believe to  exist somewhere or another, are obviously meaningless.

 

4.  Studies on arthritis are irrelevant to water fluoridation.  There is no valid, peer-reviewed scientific evidence of any association of optimally fluoridated water with arthritus.

 

5.  Anecdotal claims and self-diagnoses  of your own perceived ailments are of no relevance.  If you have valid, documented diagnoses of the cause of any medical condition you may have, from qualified, properly licensed and credentialed healthcare providers, feel free to present it at any time. In the meantime, you are probably exacerbating any such medical conditions by failing to obtain proper diagnoses and treatment.  

 

 

Steven D. Slott, DDS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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A diagnosis of Skeletal Fluorosis was observed in patients with fluoride intake as low as 0.355 mg/day with urinary fluoride levels of just 0.485 mg/L. In fact, the majority of SK cases had fluoride intake < 10 mg/ day with a large number < 5 mg/day.

  • “Fluoride toxicity depends on the following factors: (i) the total dose ingested, (ii) the duration of exposure, (iii) the nutritional status, and (iv) the body’s response… genetic factors, especially SNPs, which may affect bone metabolism, may influence the pathogenesis of fluorosis… related with rheumatoid arthritis (RA) or systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE)… subjects showed different degrees of fluorosis when exposed to the same degree of fluoride… suggested that the individual genetic susceptibility to fluorosis would benefit from further research… ” in Chinese study (2017) 

The team of trolls from the 'American Fluoridation Society' who overwhelmed this site a few days ago would have you believe there isn't any valid science about fluoride and arthritis or any other ailment. Well, we seniors understand about arrogant doctors, misdiagnoses, and medical malpractice. Case in point, American & Canadians studies that found attempts to treat osteoporosis with purified NaF (a clean version of what is dumped in many water systems) caused gastrointestinal complaints, aggravated arthritic symptoms and didn't prevent fractures (that's because even though fluoride makes bones more dense & hard, it is low quality bone that increases brittleness): 

 

Although there is less American research on fluoridation and arthritis than there should be, there is more than enough science to prove fluoridation policy is harmful rather than helpful. Moreover, there are a wealth of government reports in mainstream American press that Baby Boomers have more arthritis at younger ages than our parents ever did. 

 

“'This is not your mother's arthritis': Most cases found in younger Americans” by Jen Christiansen. CNN. March 7, 2017. 

 

Excerpts on arthritishttp://www.slweb.org/CDC-arthritis.html 

Databased of science: http://fluoridealert.org/studytracker/ 

Arthritis numbershttps://www.arthritis.org/about-arthritis/understanding-arthritis/arthritis-statistics-facts.php 

 

BTW: The reason there isn't more American research specific to arthritis & fluoridation is that everything there is documents fluoride causes or worsens arthritis in people of all ages. Consequently, more documentation only increases liability risk and threatens a profitable industry.

 

Fluoride causes or worsens many types of arthritis, most notably osteoarthritis & rheumatoid arthritis. After 23 years of going to bed in pain every night, my arthritis ('chronic Lyme') ended in less than two weeks of assidious avoidance, even using spring water instead of filtered water to brush my teeth. Avoidance is very difficult when it's in municipal water. AARP - pay attention! 

 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1205 of 1,310

“CaryAnne”

 

1.  Fluoridation was never intended, or expected to compensate for any “fluoride deficiency”.  It is simply a measure that adjusts the existing level of  fluoride in water  to that concentration at which maximum dental decay prevention has been established to occur in populations served by that water, with no adverse effects on anyone.

 

2.  There is no valid, peer-reviewed scientific evidence of association of optimally fluoridated water with arthritis.  

 

The 2006 NRC Committee on Fluoride in Drinking Water was charged to evaluate the adequacy of the EPA primary and secondary MCLs for fluoride, 4.0 ppm and 2.0 ppm respectively, to protect against adverse effects.  The final recommendation of this Committee was for the primary MCL to be lowered from 4.0 ppm.  The sole reasons cited by the Committee for this recommendation were the risk of severe dental fluorosis, bone fracture, and skeletal fluorosis, with chronic ingestion of water with a fluoride content of 4.0 ppm or greater.  Nothing else.  Had this committee deemed there to be any  concerns of arthritis, or anything else with fluoride at this level, it would have been responsible for stating so and recommending accordingly.  It did not. 

 

Additionally, the NRC Committee made no recommendation to lower the secondary MCL of 2.0 ppm.  Water is fluoridated at 0.7 ppm. one third the level which the 2006 NRC Committee on Fluoride in Drinking Water made no recommendation to lower.

 

In March of 2013, Dr. John Doull, Chair of the 2006 NRC Committee on Fluoride in Drinking Water made the following statement:

 

"I do not believe there is any valid, scientific reason for fearing adverse health conditions from the consumption of water fluoridated at the optimal level”

 

---John Doull, MD, PhD, Chair of the National Academy of Sciences, National Research Council 2006 Committee Report on Fluoride in Drinking Water

 

3.  A nonsensical, unsubstantiated claim you attribute to the of Bureau of Indian Standards notwithstanding, the US National Academy of Medicine established daily upper limit of fluoride intake  before adverse effects is 10 mg.  For every one liter of optimally fluoridated water consumed, 0.7 mg fluoride is ingested.  Before the daily upper limit could even be neared from optimally fluoridated water in conjunction with all other normal sources of fluoride intake, water toxicity would be the concern, not fluoride.

 

4. The benefits of water fluoridation have been clearly demonstrated in countless peer-reviewed  studies right up through 2018.  I will gladly provide you with as many such studies as you would reasonably care to read.  Your lack of knowledge  of the scientific literature on fluoridation does not mean  it does not exist.

 

5. There is no valid, peer-reviewed scientific evidence of an association of optimally fluoridated water with any of the litany of  nonsense you proclaim....as evidenced by your inability to provide any such evidence to support your claims.

 

6.  That you have no idea what you are talking about is clearly obvious in your confusion of dose and concentration.   Dose  is expressed in mg, not in  mg/L.  Concentration is expressed 

in mg/L.  Consuming 3 liters of optimally fluoridated water would result in ingestion of 2.1 mg fluoride, far below the US National Academy of Medicine established daily upper limit of 10 mg before adverse effects.

 

7.  If skeletal fluorosis was in any manner attributable to water fluoridation, this disorder would be rampant in the nearly 75% fluoridated US by now.  Skeletal fluorosis is so rare in the US as to be nearly non-existent.

 

Steven D. Slott, DDS 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Richard.....no.

 

1.  The paper which you urge people to read is one written by you, rife with errors and misconceptions.  It is difficult to imagine how this paper appeared in any publication, respected or otherwise.   A review of the paper by highly respected researcher Gary Whitfird, PhD, DMD details your unsubstantiated claims, misinformation, and erroneous scientific assertions.  This review may be viewed:

 

http://fluoridescience.org/commentary/physiologic-conditions-affect-toxicity-ingested-industrial-flu...

 

2.  Contrary to your claim that fluoride “is always accompanied with another cation”, fluoride is not a cation. A cation is a positively charged atom. Fluoride is the anion of the element fluorine.  An anion is a negatively charged atom.  Fluoride is indeed isolatable and  exists in water in free, ionic form.  

 

3.  You confuse the compound calcium fluoride with fluoride.  To what you are referring are free fluoride ions, not calcium fluoride.  CaF  is simply one of countless chemical compounds  containing fluoride ions, and does not exist in water.  Like fluoride, calcium exists in water in a free, ionic form.  Any combination of these two ions would form the compound calcium fluoride whose solubility is too low to exist in water.  It would thus, precipitate out.  However, there are too few fluoride ions  in water for such combination and precipitation to occur.

 

Given these facts, the EPA obviously does not “regulates any calcium fluoride in drinking water to prevent serious illness but does not insist that levels be low enough to prevent all adverse effects”.  In your context, it regulates the concentration of free fluoride ions.  

 

4. All fluoride ions, regardless the source compound from which they are released, regardless of whether they are termed “naturally occurring” or otherwise....are identical.  This is basic chemistry.  It therefore makes no difference through what “processess” fluoridation substances are produced.   The fluoride ions they release into water are identical to those which already exist in that water.

 

5. Due to the fact that fluoride is a normal constituent of the environment and in most foods that humans eat, fluoride is most certainly a normal component of human blood.  

 

6. Your claim that fluoride accumulation in bone is a pathologic process and not “biologically reversible” is patently false.

 

First of all, there is no valid, peer-reviewed scientific evidence of any adverse effects resultant of bioaccumulation of fluoride at the optimal level at which water is fluoridated.  

 

Second, it is a well established fact of fluoride pharmacokinetics that fluoride is incorporated and removed from long term storage in bone in response to its equilibrium with blood plasma fluoride concentration.

 

“Chronic dosing leads to accumulation in bone and plasma (although it might not always be detectable in plasma.) Subsequent decreases in exposure cause fluoride to move back out of bone into body fluids, becoming subject to the same kinetics as newly absorbed fluoride. A study of Swiss aluminum workers found that fluoride bone concentrations decreased by 50% after 20 years.”

 

—Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA Standards (2006)

NRC Committee on Fluoride in Drinking Water 

pp 92

 

7.  The use of sodium fluoride tablets in fluoiridated cities does not violate any “FDA prescription instructions”.  Fluoride supplements require prescription in order to ensure, as much as possible, that the fluoride content of the primary water source of the patient is verified prior to dispensing any further fluoride.  Simply because a community is fluoridated does not mean that all residents obtain their water from the public water supply, or that they consume water from their taps.  It is the responsibility of the prescribing dentist or physician to make these determinations, and to prescribe accordingly.

 

8.  Infants do, indeed, have teeth.  Human teeth begin developing in the fetus, continuing to the age of 8 years.  Incorporation of fluoride into the developing teeth results in strengthening these teeth against decay for a lifetime.

 

Abuse of children is denying them the increased dental decay resistance provided by water fluoridation, based on nothing but unsubstantiated claims, false assertions, and misinformation put forth by misguided, uninformed activists.

 

Steven D. Slott, DDS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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“Fluoride has no known essential function in human growth and development and no signs of fluoride deficiency have been identified.- European Food Safety Authority on DRV  (2013)

 

“Based on data from the National Academy of Sciences, current levels of fluoride exposure in drinking water may cause arthritis in a substantial portion of the population long before they reach old age" - Dr. Robert Carton,  EPA Scientist (1993)

 

"Drinking water: 1.0 mg/L is the upper limit the body may tolerate; less the better as fluoride is injurious to health." - Bureau of Indian Standards, 2012

 

There are essential nutrients and non-essential nutrients. Fluoride is neither in any form despite dental assertions to the contrary. The best American dentists got was convincing some folks in the 1990s to call it a beneficial element with no known adverse effects up to 10 mgs per day - but that ship has sailed.  

 

Fluoride is an enzyme poison and inflammatory drug that accumulates in bones, bodies and brains. In this century, it has been scientifically determined that fluoride is a developmental neurotoxicant (brain poison) even in low doses previously considered safe and that  0.5 mg/L disrupts thyroid function and that 1 mg/L is nephrotoxic to struggling kidneys. Fluoride penetrates the brain where it can disrupt sleep patterns when it calcifies the pineal gland.  If you drink 3 liters of water a day at 0.7 ppm, assuming you aren't using any fluoridated dental products or have any other exposure and have healthy kidneys, your dose would be 2.1 mg. 

 

* About 40% of Americans over age 60 develop bone spurs - Stage 2 Skeletal Fluorosis. 

* About 70 million Americans suffer from gastrointestinal disease

                  Individual susceptiblity to fluoride poisoning varies

 

2015 Review: 

http://fluorideandfluorosis.com/Reprints/pdf/IJPP%2017(2)%202015.pdf

SkeletalFluorosis.jpg

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Fluoride is not a mineral. Please read the Journal of Environmental and Public Health  439490 article in its entirety. Fluorite is a mineral but fluoride is not isolatable itself and is always accompanied with another cation.

Natural minerals containing fluoride that can be found in the ocean or as a contaminant in some fresh waters is calcium fluoride with limited solubility. The EPA regulates any calcium fluoride in drinking  water to prevent serious illness but does not insist that levels be low enough to prevent all adverse health effects. All added fluoride sources are synthetic, made in industrial processes. Fluoride is not a normal component of human blood and is not a nutrient. Fluoride accumulation in bone lifetime is a pathologic process, not a physiologic one and is not biochemically reversible. 

The use of sodium fluoride tablets in fluoridated cities violate FDA prescription instructions. And infants have no teeth so fluoridating infant bone is abuse. 

 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Clearly fluoride can be .

A natural mineral in drinking water
A mineral nutrient
A water additive
An over the counter medication
A prescription medication
An industrial chemical
An industrial pollutant
A fumigant
A rat poison

Each of these statements is true. There are important, critical distinctions between each use, each concentration, and the purity standards which define the various incarnations of "fluoride." Different governmental bureaucracies have regulatory responsibility depending on the specific use.

The willful refusal to acknowledge these clear and easily understood distinctions is an important element in fluoridation opponents misleading the general public.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1210 of 1,310

War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength,  Fluoride is Gin, and America is a Gulag! 

No free nation dumbs artificial industrial waste into the water supply using the ruse that the worthless garbage benefits teeth. We may as well ingest lead and say it makes humans beautiful. Lol! 

Dentist with venal interest have no credibility, since everywhere you look in America, you see spotted teeth. Good business for dentist!

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