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Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 1,186
Registered: ‎01-01-2016

Re: electric car mandate

Message 11 of 27 (241 Views)

GailL1 wrote:

Olderscout66,

i don't believe those development subsidies went to the end-user - they went to the industry.  In fact we are still subsidizing things in this manner which IMO should be pretty much standing on their own - rapid transit, Amtrax - the list goes on.

 

Tax advantage subsidies given to the end user are really just discounts for the product and they are hard to stop EVER especially if the product in question does not become competitive in stand alone pricing ( market pricing ) where the product is desired by those of all income levels.  You can apply that same thing to things like solar panels - still highly subsidized by state tax credits in some states.

 

I ask this question to especially you - why should government subsidize any item at the end-user level especially when the price of such items are cost prohibitive to many people - with or without the tax advantage subsidiary?

 

 

 

 


Gail, I would agree with you except for the fact that we are already "subsidizing" internal combustion engines and high pollution vehicles by not charging them the future costs that their vehicles are generating for clean up and mitigation.  If somebody can figure out what these costs will be and figure out how to charge it, whether at the point of sale or at the pump, then I would agree with your point.  But, right now, the cost of an internal combustion vehicle is artificially low.

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 8,777
Registered: ‎08-18-2008

Re: electric car mandate

[ Edited ]
Message 12 of 27 (230 Views)

Olderscout66,

i don't believe those development subsidies went to the end-user - they went to the industry.  In fact we are still subsidizing things in this manner which IMO should be pretty much standing on their own - rapid transit, Amtrax - the list goes on.

 

Tax advantage subsidies given to the end user are really just discounts for the product and they are hard to stop EVER especially if the product in question does not become competitive in stand alone pricing ( market pricing ) where the product is desired by those of all income levels.  You can apply that same thing to things like solar panels - still highly subsidized by state tax credits in some states.

 

I ask this question to especially you - why should government subsidize any item at the end-user level especially when the price of such items are cost prohibitive to many people - with or without the tax advantage subsidiary?

 

 

 

 

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 20,643
Registered: ‎11-09-2011

Re: electric car mandate

Message 13 of 27 (231 Views)

Gail - You might be right, but we would not have had a railroad system without HUGE government subsidities and without the Government investment in the InterState, our auto industry would've stopped growing around 1954.

 

So the question is, do we want to build cars in America, or become a colony exporting our taconite and scrap iron and importing everything else from "The Mother (Russia?) Country"

 

The EU has committed to banning the sale of fossile fuel vehicles in 2040 or sooner. The European "branch" of Ford has 7.4% of the EU market, Fiat/Chrysler has 7.1% and Opel/GM has 6.3%. How will the EU react if the USA makes no effort to developing efficient and affordable electric vehicles? Could they go so far as to "nationalize" the US share of those companies to prevent profits derived from the subsidities given by EU countries from flowing back to America that contributed nothing?

 

No new technology has every made it to market WITHOUT government support and neither will the electric cars. We can either find the money to stay in the game, or become a defacto colony of countries that DID make the investments.

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 8,777
Registered: ‎08-18-2008

Re: electric car mandate

Message 14 of 27 (230 Views)

Currently, I don't think that EV sales could survive without subsidies but on the other hand some consider these subsidies just welfare for the rich or even upper middle.

 

Bloomberg 06/02/2017 - Denmark is Killing Tesla (and other Electric Cars)

 

The article shows where subsidies are given and what happen when they are removed (almost immediately).

 

How much incentive (subsidies) should be given to create this so-called mandate?

 

 

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 31,677
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: electric car mandate

Message 15 of 27 (224 Views)

retiredtraveler wrote:

GailL1 wrote:

"....How much should the government (federal and state) subsidize the purchase of EVs ?

Got your on order already???...".

 

Ya know. Even though I'm a pretty hard-core environmentalist, I'm not sure we should be subsidizing EV's. I have been driving a hybrid for 4 years now, and I still think that is the best way to go initially, without help from the feds. I always envisioned that hybrids would be the norm, consumers would embrace them, especially as they cost less, with only a small percentage of total electric cars until the battery technology improved.

   Apparently, I'm in the minority on that.


 


All aspects of that makes sense. Well said.

Trusted Social Butterfly
Posts: 7,098
Registered: ‎02-14-2008

Re: electric car mandate

Message 16 of 27 (255 Views)

GailL1 wrote:

"....How much should the government (federal and state) subsidize the purchase of EVs ?

Got your on order already???...".

 

Ya know. Even though I'm a pretty hard-core environmentalist, I'm not sure we should be subsidizing EV's. I have been driving a hybrid for 4 years now, and I still think that is the best way to go initially, without help from the feds. I always envisioned that hybrids would be the norm, consumers would embrace them, especially as they cost less, with only a small percentage of total electric cars until the battery technology improved.

   Apparently, I'm in the minority on that.


 


Just think. The world was built by the lowest bidder.
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Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 8,777
Registered: ‎08-18-2008

Re: electric car mandate

Message 17 of 27 (253 Views)

How much should the government (federal and state) subsidize the purchase of EVs ?

Got your on order already???

 

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 31,677
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: electric car mandate

Message 18 of 27 (262 Views)

I'm all for electric cars for those who want them. I finally realized a long-time desire, I live in a community where my second car is a golf cart (electric). However - - - 

 

Reminder:   cars of today have made great improvements in fuel conservation, thanks to President Obama and of course the GOP want to gut those improvements, but most consumers care about fuel mileage and eliminating that  improvement may decrease sales.

 

What are the improvements that the consumers  wants but the GOP wants to gut? It seems to me that if the consumer wants it, the manufacturer will produce it and I don't think the government is going to stop it.

Respected Social Butterfly
Posts: 41,725
Registered: ‎06-03-2013

Re: electric car mandate

Message 19 of 27 (268 Views)

afisher wrote:

    states like TX refuse / foot drag to build out, so that travelling from outside the State into TX remains problematic.

 

    


Of course Texas would be more prone towards petroleum based fuels since that is a primary part of the economy here.  Another factor might be the range of electric vehicles when the distances between major cities is so extensive.  We have owned vehicles that are so economic on gas use that we can fill up here within the Houston area and travel to Dallas on that tank of gas and still not be empty.

 

From what I recall the optimum distance for a battery operated vehicle is about 215 miles before needing a full charge.  Could one imagine making a 300 mile trip and having to stop at a recharging station for a length of time? 

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 14,172
Registered: ‎03-20-2009

Re: electric car mandate

Message 20 of 27 (263 Views)

   The nonsense of talking about generic 'auto sales" is pretty preposterous, because it is just a number and some here are ignoring that the sales are predominantly  small trucks are being purchased.  

 

    Reminder:   cars of today have made great improvements in fuel conservation, thanks to President Obama and of course the GOP want to gut those improvements, but most consumers care about fuel mileage and eliminating that  improvement may decrease sales.   Auto companies would then have to reconfigure fuel systems to make them less efficient, but only in the US....someone want to argue that makes sense?  

 

    CA is the State with most Electric, in large part because they have built out the infrastructure to have plug in sites.   Meanwhile idiot states like TX refuse / foot drag to build out, so that travelling from outside the State into TX remains problematic.

 

     Me, since retiring, I have learned to use the City Public Transportation system.    It is really inexpensive for Senior (max round trip is $1.35, but a trip to go to City Council meeting is $0.50) and pretty convenient, especially when travelling to City Center, where traffic is terrible and parking is exceedingly expensive ($10-15).    Travel time may be a bit longer  than traveling by car, but then I take a book to read.     Fortunately, we just elected a new City Council and Mayor who are advocates of improving public transportation, not decimating the process.   And all busses are being converted / updated to LNG fuel.