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Super Social Butterfly
Posts: 611
Registered: ‎06-07-2016

Re: This is the Democratic Party - circa 2017

Message 1 of 15 (130 Views)
Democrats will continue to fail. The have such an ill defined message mired in inclusion. You can't be for everyone and against everything... that is not a strategy.

Hate is not a Christian virtue, neither is liberal sanctimony
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Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 1,317
Registered: ‎10-09-2009

Re: This is the Democratic Party - circa 2017

Message 2 of 15 (154 Views)

afisher wrote:

   Oh my, the donald supporters are saying that the current IL Gov. should be the face of Dems.   Are they il-informed...he is a Republican who is so dogmatic that he won't sign a budget bill - for 2 years.

 

   It is weird as those who want to play both sides against the middle ( the indies of sorts) want to form their own party - if only because they believe their own hype.      These people have been  well described.      

 

    The real question is if the millenials will stay engaged.    Thus far, the answer is YES.  

 

    What that means is that Seniors are losing their clout and so they scream really loud and then shoot themselves in the foot.   Ask yourselves what you did to assure that Social Security and Medicare remain viable , because if you choose wrong, it will be gone.    Hope you are prepared for that.   The Die quickly and quietly gang has set you up.   


To clarify, my agreement with Fishslayer was that the D-party was not doing anything to attract the working middle class voter. Otherwise, Fish is much more conservative D than I am.

 

So you are opposed to having a viable third party enter the picture? Why is that?

 

I already know that R's have gone too far to the right, and offer no help to the middle working class. But what exactly are the D's going to do to win me over? They ran their entire 2016 campaign as a war-on-the-rich in an effort to win working middle class votes, and it failed. As for Bernie, or the Progressives, I really see him as the old tax-and-spend model democrat like LBJ. Not that it's entirely a bad thing, but I don't see how we can tax our way to providing everything that he wants to do, and control the deficit. Yes, millennials love that stuff, but they are a self-indulgent generation. But do you really think that they will give a hoot about us older folks? I don't think so.

 

So why not a moderate third party that would just take a realistic look at the world, and offer some sensible solutions that would work for most people, or can D's do that? Or will they become splintered like the R's, and accomplish nothing?

Super Social Butterfly
Posts: 611
Registered: ‎06-07-2016

Re: This is the Democratic Party - circa 2017

Message 3 of 15 (154 Views)
The democrats aren't executing their "strategy" very well then. You forgot immigration, jobs, healthcare, the middle east, china, unfair trade, NATO, drain the swamp etc. It's a populist message for sure but lets face it... the democrats ain't very popular these days.

The Bern wants those things too.... but has a different way of addressing them... hence the reason he was popular.

You know Trumps message in the 90's would have been a democratic party line. That ain't so long ago. Wonder what happened?

Hate is not a Christian virtue, neither is liberal sanctimony
Treasured Social Butterfly
Posts: 11,850
Registered: ‎02-28-2008

Re: This is the Democratic Party - circa 2017

Message 4 of 15 (159 Views)

The strategy in the Democratic Party is to ignore Trump as a target and concentrate on policies.  The Democrats have long been the party of the middle and lower economic classes but have lost control of their message.  Democrats, Independents, and many Republicans have dismissed Trump as an incompetent buffoon so pointing out his incompetence joins the cliche' tactics of begin against crime, for peace, and loving America. Nobody ever is on the other side of any of those issues. 

Super Social Butterfly
Posts: 611
Registered: ‎06-07-2016

Re: This is the Democratic Party - circa 2017

Message 5 of 15 (169 Views)
As usual... moving away from the topic and attacking my views and thoughts. This isn't about me and MY opinion.

Share your views and ideas and let's have a civil debate or discussion. Why do all democrats try and make it personal?

Hate is not a Christian virtue, neither is liberal sanctimony
Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 1,342
Registered: ‎02-12-2011

Re: This is the Democratic Party - circa 2017

Message 6 of 15 (171 Views)

@ Fishslayer 777

Idle curiousity.  I presume you are Fishslayer 666 from style and content.  Was there a reason for not using 666 anymore?

Fishslayer777 wrote:
@umbarch64

This is about democrats and what they need to do. Don't get "hung" up on the competition, that gives power away to something beyond your control. It's a classic failure of democrats. Zealots exist in every political realm and won't go away, but a morally sound message quells the noise. Don't be part of the noise.

Well....getting 'hung-up" does have an effect on a person's rational behavior.  That's true.  Makes them non-ratonal at best, maybe even Irrational.   Exploiting that hang-up doesn't 'give power away to the compitetion', however.  Artful mastery of that technique increases control and enhances power.  At that point what is and is not 'morally sound' is very much in question will NOT 'quell the noise'....it becomes part of it.   I agree that remaining 'rational' is of prime importance in any case, if that is what you meant.
In the case of this political lash-up, failure to recognize that importance is a moral failure all by itself.  Belongs to all parties and Parties.......just more so to the Republicans this time around.  

The Bern will never gain momentum. A classic "cause" without a strategy. The "idea" of shaking things up, as he has suggested will always resonate and could gain traction with democratic voters and independents as it did with Trump voters, but Bern message is just a cause. No teeth.... and the power is with the haves.... not the have nots.

I guess i'm not sure of what the last sentence means....to you personally or to your intent by saying it.  It is a bit of a 'non-sequitur' since the 'have nots' do not have resources, power or the means to acheive it while the 'haves' do.

I have not spoken for the working class rank and file... the election of Trump did... remember? Please ... don't be condescending.

You spoke to what the rank and file worker wanted from the Democratic Party. It is not being condescending to point out that when you did that you presumed to speak for what was in their minds.  I simply don't think you can justify doing that.

I'm a registered democrat who votes independently and most recently has voted for republicans.

 

That doesn't surprise me.  It does raise the question about what you really are, however.  I don't know,  Do you? 


 

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 13,781
Registered: ‎03-20-2009

Re: This is the Democratic Party - circa 2017

Message 7 of 15 (183 Views)

   Oh my, the donald supporters are saying that the current IL Gov. should be the face of Dems.   Are they il-informed...he is a Republican who is so dogmatic that he won't sign a budget bill - for 2 years.

 

   It is weird as those who want to play both sides against the middle ( the indies of sorts) want to form their own party - if only because they believe their own hype.      These people have been  well described.      

 

    The real question is if the millenials will stay engaged.    Thus far, the answer is YES.  

 

    What that means is that Seniors are losing their clout and so they scream really loud and then shoot themselves in the foot.   Ask yourselves what you did to assure that Social Security and Medicare remain viable , because if you choose wrong, it will be gone.    Hope you are prepared for that.   The Die quickly and quietly gang has set you up.   

Super Social Butterfly
Posts: 611
Registered: ‎06-07-2016

Re: This is the Democratic Party - circa 2017

Message 8 of 15 (190 Views)
@umbarch64

This is about democrats and what they need to do. Don't get "hung" up on the competition, that gives power away to something beyond your control. It's a classic failure of democrats. Zealots exist in every political realm and won't go away, but a morally sound message quells the noise. Don't be part of the noise.

The Bern will never gain momentum. A classic "cause" without a strategy. The "idea" of shaking things up, as he has suggested will always resonate and could gain traction with democratic voters and independents as it did with Trump voters, but Bern message is just a cause. No teeth.... and the power is with the haves.... not the have nots.

I have not spoken for the working class rank and file... the election of Trump did... remember? Please ... don't be condescending.

I'm a registered democrat who votes independently and most recently has voted for republicans.

Hate is not a Christian virtue, neither is liberal sanctimony
Super Social Butterfly
Posts: 611
Registered: ‎06-07-2016

Re: This is the Democratic Party - circa 2017

Message 9 of 15 (194 Views)
RK... Good analysis. Yes about the Bern and his message but his support is in a box (limited) and not expandable beyond the have nots and belligerent radicals. As time moves on, those folks become the working class, raising families, paying bills... and will come to realize you can trust people over 30.... because that's what they've become.

The American experiment is more robust when the democratic party is healthy and reflects the working class. I believe they may have lost that prize and are heading towards the bottom in an attempt to gain power via economic elites who sympathise with democrat pseudo causes = against everything not in a progressive marxist agenda.

Power is a concept. Political power is also defined differently differently by pluralists, elites and marxists. As each theory evolves, it gives rise and authority to differing political viewpoints.
I believe the democrats have failed to understand the working class will not be contained, defined or put in a category and as such, have give rise to "independents". Only those who are groomed for dependency will be democrat party loyalists.




Hate is not a Christian virtue, neither is liberal sanctimony
Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 1,317
Registered: ‎10-09-2009

Re: This is the Democratic Party - circa 2017

Message 10 of 15 (205 Views)

@Fishslayer777 - I agree with you, but I don't see it happening. Cat Sad

 

The socialist-left movement, who go beyond Sanders, in the D-party, is much the same as the alt-right movement in the R-party. Now the alt-right has a firm grip in R-party politics. D's have got to decide if they will allow the socialist-left to have the same on theirs. If they do, both parties will be so splintered that I can't see how either will continue to function.

 

Enter a middle-ground third party? Well that would be my hope.