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Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 4,731
Registered: ‎10-25-2011

Re: Making Hurricane Season Worse

Message 21 of 63 (194 Views)

NOTHAPPENING wrote:

myexper wrote:

NOTHAPPENING wrote:

myexper wrote:

NOTHAPPENING wrote:

myexper wrote:

NOTHAPPENING wrote:

 


It's obvious that you didn't understand my post. 

I do understand it. You are looking for a means to disparage the left.

You don't understand which is why you told everyone the electric industry uses 30% coal.  They use coal because it is the cheaper fuel for some utilities.  The left disparages itself.  I don't need to do it for you.

It's not cheaper. The regulations on burning coal add to its cost. Utilities using coal will phase it out as soon as they are able to switch to natural gas or other means.

It's cheaper for those utilities that use coal.  That's why you still have 30% coal.  They will phase it out when another fuel is cheaper - not because you or the left say so.

Nope .... Natural gas is already cheaper!

Not for the 30% who are still using coal.  I guess you don't understand how businesses work.

No, you don't understand that it takes time and investment to switch fron coal.

 

 

I said utilities use the "mix" of power that is cheapest based on installation costs, operating costs, and maintenance costs. 

Which is why they have been and will continue to eliminate coal.

Yes they will if it is cheaper for them in the long run or NOT if it is cheaper to keep coal.

No ..... they will eliminate coal as soon as able to switch to natural gas.

They will eliminate coal as soon as another fuel is cheaper.  If natural gas is cheaper including the conversion costs, then they will convert.  Not because you or the left say so.

Nope ...... Natural gas is already cheaper!

So why do the 30% still use coal?

Again, it takes time and investment to switch from coal.

 

 

That's why they all don't have one type of generation.  Understand how they make their decisions yet? 

Yup ..... Do you understand the health risks of burning coal yet?

Yes and that's why they use electrostatic precipitators on coal plants to minimize that risk.

And that adds cost to the burning of coal ..... and STILL does not eliminate its health hazards and climate changing emissions.

Precipitators DO add to the cost of burning coal and they are using it despite that because it is still cheaper for the 30% to use coal.  They won't convert because you don't like coal.

Never said that. They'll convert as soon as able as natural gas is already cheaper!

If natural gas was cheaper, they would convert immediately.  They don't follow your whims.

Never said they did. And they all can't convert immediately as already explained.

 

 

They don't walk in lockstep with the left lemmings.

And with that comment, you've just further proved my understanding (the real intent) of your post.

I see you're starting to catch on.

No ..... I always knew that you were never serious about  the topic and only used it as yet another opportunity to disparage the left!

As I said before, I don't need to disparage the left. 

Yet you do so anyway!

I don't need to since the left does it well without help.

Yet you do so anyway ..... again contradicting yourself!

 

They have done that quite admirably themselves.

If you believe that, then why do you continue to disparage the left anyway?

A massive contradiction NOTHAPPENING!!!

Not so myexper.

Even MORE SO as you continue to contradict yourself in each sucessive posting!


 


 


 


 


 


 


 

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 10,822
Registered: ‎06-07-2010

Re: Making Hurricane Season Worse

Message 22 of 63 (220 Views)

Richva wrote:

NOTHAPPENING wrote:

Richva wrote:

So, if I look at the posts and the links, I think we can all agree that man made global climate change is making the hurricanes worse and more frequent. 


What do you mean "we" - Pilgrim ????????????????


Oh, sorry. I was looking at the scientific studies and just assumed we did not have any Luddites in the crowd. 


Are you in charge of evaluating the left wing studies (surveys by "Climatologists" who depend on this drivel for their livelihood) and then mandating rules for everyone?  I didn't think so.

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 4,745
Registered: ‎07-27-2011

Re: Making Hurricane Season Worse

Message 23 of 63 (220 Views)

Good news - the GOP House just passed their spending bill and Republican Kevin McCarthy brags about it's cuts to the abusive EPA !!! Oh the Humanity !!!

Treasured Social Butterfly
Posts: 12,155
Registered: ‎02-28-2008

Re: Making Hurricane Season Worse

Message 24 of 63 (198 Views)

NOTHAPPENING wrote:

Richva wrote:

So, if I look at the posts and the links, I think we can all agree that man made global climate change is making the hurricanes worse and more frequent. 


What do you mean "we" - Pilgrim ????????????????


Oh, sorry. I was looking at the scientific studies and just assumed we did not have any Luddites in the crowd. 

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 10,822
Registered: ‎06-07-2010

Re: Making Hurricane Season Worse

[ Edited ]
Message 25 of 63 (188 Views)

Richva wrote:

So, if I look at the posts and the links, I think we can all agree that man made global climate change is making the hurricanes worse and more frequent. 


What do you mean "we" - Pilgrim ????????????????

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 10,822
Registered: ‎06-07-2010

Re: Making Hurricane Season Worse

Message 26 of 63 (185 Views)

myexper wrote:

NOTHAPPENING wrote:

myexper wrote:

NOTHAPPENING wrote:

myexper wrote:

NOTHAPPENING wrote:

myexper wrote:

NOTHAPPENING wrote:

myexper wrote:

NOTHAPPENING wrote:

MIseker wrote:
can force industry to make changes without government regulations.<<< wont happen, thats why we have things like the paris accords. But i do my small part too. but without voting in regulations, i cant make coal burning power plants disappear. My elec is coal fired, and I have 2 nuke plants within 30 miles. There is a dam on my river that USED to produce enought for the town in 1900..it still could make some but..no generation at it. Not my decision.

Your utility company that has 1 coal fired, 2 nukes, and no hydro, made their decision based on construction costs, operating costs, and maintenance costs which are passed on to you so your monthly bill will be the lowest.  They also buy and sell electricity to other utilities based on their operating costs.  They also aren't looking at the "feel good" solutions for either political party, which will BTW, raise your rates.


I'd rather have my rates raised than be poisoned by the mercury (and all else) in coal fired emissions.

 


Then my suggestion is move to another planet where they have "your rules".

I never stated any "rules" NOTHAPPENING.  You made that up!

 

 

  All electric utilities operate NOT your way.

All? ........ wrong again! 

Only 30% of our electric power comes from coal.


 


It's obvious that you didn't understand my post. 

I do understand it. You are looking for a means to disparage the left.

You don't understand which is why you told everyone the electric industry uses 30% coal.  They use coal because it is the cheaper fuel for some utilities.  The left disparages itself.  I don't need to do it for you.

It's not cheaper. The regulations on burning coal add to its cost. Utilities using coal will phase it out as soon as they are able to switch to natural gas or other means.

It's cheaper for those utilities that use coal.  That's why you still have 30% coal.  They will phase it out when another fuel is cheaper - not because you or the left say so.

Nope .... Natural gas is already cheaper!

Not for the 30% who are still using coal.  I guess you don't understand how businesses work.

 

 

I said utilities use the "mix" of power that is cheapest based on installation costs, operating costs, and maintenance costs. 

Which is why they have been and will continue to eliminate coal.

Yes they will if it is cheaper for them in the long run or NOT if it is cheaper to keep coal.

No ..... they will eliminate coal as soon as able to switch to natural gas.

They will eliminate coal as soon as another fuel is cheaper.  If natural gas is cheaper including the conversion costs, then they will convert.  Not because you or the left say so.

Nope ...... Natural gas is already cheaper!

So why do the 30% still use coal?

 

 

That's why they all don't have one type of generation.  Understand how they make their decisions yet? 

Yup ..... Do you understand the health risks of burning coal yet?

Yes and that's why they use electrostatic precipitators on coal plants to minimize that risk.

And that adds cost to the burning of coal ..... and STILL does not eliminate its health hazards and climate changing emissions.

Precipitators DO add to the cost of burning coal and they are using it despite that because it is still cheaper for the 30% to use coal.  They won't convert because you don't like coal.

Never said that. They'll convert as soon as able as natural gas is already cheaper!

If natural gas was cheaper, they would convert immediately.  They don't follow your whims.

 

 

They don't walk in lockstep with the left lemmings.

And with that comment, you've just further proved my understanding (the real intent) of your post.

I see you're starting to catch on.

No ..... I always knew that you were never serious about  the topic and only used it as yet another opportunity to disparage the left!

As I said before, I don't need to disparage the left. 

Yet you do so anyway!

I don't need to since the left does it well without help.

 

They have done that quite admirably themselves.

If you believe that, then why do you continue to disparage the left anyway?

A massive contradiction NOTHAPPENING!!!

Not so myexper.


 


 


 


 


 


 

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 4,731
Registered: ‎10-25-2011

Re: Making Hurricane Season Worse

Message 27 of 63 (203 Views)

umbarch64 wrote:

jfpinlvn wrote:


Whoa, kemosabe! Who is "we"? I see no consensus of opinion here.


The Lone Ranger and Tonto find themselves surrounded by hostile Indians.  LR says something like, "WE've got to get out of here" to which Tonto replies, "What you mean WE, white man?"


That's why they call the Ranger The "Lone" Ranger.

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 1,452
Registered: ‎02-12-2011

Re: Making Hurricane Season Worse

Message 28 of 63 (237 Views)

jfpinlvn wrote:


Whoa, kemosabe! Who is "we"? I see no consensus of opinion here.


The Lone Ranger and Tonto find themselves surrounded by hostile Indians.  LR says something like, "WE've got to get out of here" to which Tonto replies, "What you mean WE, white man?"  That what you meant to say jfpinlvn?  You left out something.

Highlighted
Trusted Social Butterfly
Posts: 2,911
Registered: ‎03-06-2012

Re: Making Hurricane Season Worse

Message 29 of 63 (219 Views)

Richva wrote:

So, if I look at the posts and the links, I think we can all agree that man made global climate change is making the hurricanes worse and more frequent. 


Whoa, kemosabe! Who is "we"? I see no consensus of opinion here.

 

Neither you or anyone else here has even provided any evidence that there has been an increase in the frequency or instensity of hurricanes. On the contrary:

 

From the OP's link:

 

"So far, scientists have not found an extreme weather event that could not have occurred without climate change, but they have found several instances where it multiplied the odds of one that occurred." (This is based on theory and their models).

 

Further:

 

"Scientists say climate change has probably played a role in shaping this year’s big storms and those previous monster seasons. When scientists build models of the climate system — digital worlds where the physics of a warming atmosphere can spin out thousands of possible futures — they see a clear connection between a hotter planet and hurricanes. In those model Earths, a warmer world makes storms stronger and increases the rainfall they leave behind. In the real world, the planet has gotten warmer, the oceans have gotten warmer, and here we have these intense storms — it all seems to add up.

 

But, frustratingly, it’s harder to look at the actual hurricanes that have happened and find evidence of those changes playing out the way we’d expect. The planet’s average global temperature has increased, but its hurricanes don’t seem to have changed much. We can tie hurricanes to climate change in theory, but we don’t see a statistical signal of those theories playing out in practice. It could be that the climate hasn’t changed enough yet. It could be that hurricanes have changed, just not in a way that’s apparent statistically. We can’t be sure.'

<SNIP>

"Finally, there’s evidence that Atlantic hurricanes go through multidecadal cycles when their intensity and frequency waxes and wanes. The early 1970s to mid-1990s appear to contain something of a hurricane drought, compared to what came before and after, Vecchi said. But, because of the problems with the historical data, we don’t really know whether these cycles are a product of natural variability, or, say, the result of increases in dust and factory pollution after World War II, or some combination of both. Which also means that, when we see a trend in increasing hurricane number or ferocity since the 1960s or ‘70s, we don’t know whether that’s a product of climate change, a natural cyclical change, other kinds of human-caused changes to the climate system — or all three at once.

 

The result of all this is that it’s much easier to spot climate change-related patterns in temperature than it is in hurricanes. The trick is to spot the signal in the noise, Knutson said. And the noise is louder for hurricanes."

 

More at: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-100-year-old-hurricanes-could-teach-us-about-irma/

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 1,452
Registered: ‎02-12-2011

Re: Making Hurricane Season Worse

[ Edited ]
Message 30 of 63 (214 Views)

Olderscout66 wrote:

Coal appears cheaper only because Republicans have transfered the costs from the utilities to the general public. Here's how those costs get paid:

 

  • When Appalachian streams become polluted with sediment and heavy metals because of mountaintop removal mining, the public pays to clean up the water so it’s safe to drink — but they don’t pay the cost on their electric bill, they pay it on their water bill!
  • When a child in North Carolina suffers an asthma attack or ear infection because of a coal-burning TVA power plant in Tennessee, the North Carolina family pays the cost of the child’s medication — not TVA.
  • When a community in the Appalachian Mountains suffers from depreciated property values because a coal company is showering the town with coal dust, the homeowners pay the cost when they sell their homes and move away.
  • And when heavy coal trucks destroy the roads and bridges in the mountain towns, the taxpayers have to pay to fix the roads — not the trucking or coal companies. According to the study, the price of coal-generated electricity would be $0.18 per kW-Hr higher if it actually included these externalized costs.

The Harvard Study published 17 May 2007, catalogued the above costs extimated the hidden cost of burning coal to be between $330B and $500B each year. The"transfered cost" of $0.18/kW-hr would quadruple the cost of producing electricity by burning coal, from $0.041/kWhr to $0.221/kWhr

 

A few years ago the Indiana University School of Medicine did a study and determined that the public health cost of burning coal for Hoosiers was $5 billion annually. Pollution from burning coal causes heart disease, lung disease, and asthma and puts mercury into the environment. The American Lung Association estimates that 24,000 excess deaths nationally are caused by pollution from coal-fired power plants every year.

 

But so long as Republicans continue to allow this "cost-transfer" from the corporations to individual Americans, We the People will pay the true cost of burning coal for energy.

 

 


Earlier a 'conservative' poster asserted that the 'consumer' would 'pay' increased costs in KWH rates IF dirty means of generating electricity were not employed...that the utility companies used the most economic heat sources to achieve economies passed on to the consumer in lower KWH rates. 

 

That is a distortion of actual fact.  As you point out, true costs are hidden and never show up on the utility company's spread sheet.  They are, or will be, paid by someone else in a seemingly unrelated way either now or in the future.  That's actual fact.  Pay the true cost now or pay it later....it WILL get paid and it won't be by the Utility Company, their executives, the shareholders or the futures speculators.  That too is actual fact. 

 

The coal resource is quite large, but it IS non-renewable, just like oil.  Deplete a non-renewable resource, both you and the future pays.  Pollute the environment, both you and the future pays. The future citizen isn't here yet, so he/she doesn't get much say in the matter. 

 

ANY cost associated with the use of an energy source that is NOT contained in the KWH rate paid by the customer is a subsidy...IN FACT.  IF you don't pay the subsidy, the future does.  In the economic model conservatives propose that's precisely what happens

 

It's a shell game.  The General Public has yet to see clearly past the sleight of hand performance going on. One more scam, one more excuse for irresponsibility that creates profit that goes into somebody's pocket, never gets repaid and is never seen again.  Just like that pesky pea, donchasee?