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Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 31,631
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: Communism

Message 61 of 104 (68 Views)

ChasKy53 wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

gruffstuff wrote:

Point in fact - if the founding fathers did not believe that the Constitution should be modified when and as necessary, and intendthat it be modified by future generations, they would not have provided a mechanism for amending it.

 

Also there is the ninth amendment.

 

Article [IX] (Amendment 9 - Unenumerated Rights)

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

 

The rights of the people are not limited to the rights enumerated in the Constitution.

 

The whole " it's not in the Constitution " argument is baloney. In fact the Constitution itself says the Constitution "  shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

 

The rights of the people don't have to be in the Constitution and those who claim they must be are actually attacking the Constitution and the ideals behind it.


Agreed. The Constitution can be changed via the amendment process - only.

 

Any thoughts on the viability of Communism as laid out by Marx?


You claimed that the Constitution was not a living document, so now you have changed your mind?

No I haven't and I am sure you know that - just looking for a fight.

 

Marxism has been talked to death and my outlook hasn't changed. Same with communism.


If you don't want to talk about the topic - why are you posting?

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 31,631
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: Communism

Message 62 of 104 (74 Views)

Richva wrote:

rk9152 wrote:


Not "God written" but "logic written" the more power you grant to the State, the less freedom the people have. Great care is needed particularly when you get into the area of (as one poster thinks) the government owns all the money and decides who gets what.

 

Once again, ceding power to the government is ceding it to those people that no one trusts and are supposedly selling their offices.


The Constitution does point out that "the state" is "of the people, by the people, and for the people " so your argument is that giving power to the people is giving them less freedom. I would also point out that paying the bills in the most efficient way in a representative democracy is not taking power from anyone except the the companies.  

 

As a political campaigner workng to improve our democracy,  I have met many of our public servants and your statement about them selling their offices is inaccurate, offensive, and ill informed. 


Interesting - so many complaints about our elected representatives and now we hear how they are "pure as the driven snow". I guess that is a case of situational ethics - it all depends on the point one is pushing.

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 31,631
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: Communism

Message 63 of 104 (74 Views)

MIseker wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

ChasKy53 wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

Richva wrote:

I would point out that the economic system used by the United States is not part of the Constitution.  I certainly agree that some people misunderstand words like Communism and Marxism but it is most annoying when they make up their own definitions.  One poster continues to label  any cooperative economic effort as Marxism which wither shows a profound ignorance or a blatant disregard of the facts. 

 

Simply applying a label to the economic approach used to solve a problem does not make it good or bad.  It makes it possible to reduce the conversation to a bumper sticker.....an inaccurate bumper sticker at that. 


What has the economic system to do with what I posted?

 

Was there anything wrong with what I posted about Communism other than offering a launching pad for more insults?


How is it an insult to point out (very accurately) that a poster  "continues to label  any cooperative economic effort as Marxism which wither shows a profound ignorance or a blatant disregard of the facts." ????


1) If you have to ask, you are suffering the maladies described in that post;

2) Do you have no interest in the topic beyond something to fight about?


maybe. but your starting point of COMMUNISM doesnt apply to anyone here, even me. the world truly is divided between fascist and antifa, but antifa comes in many stripes. fascists label everything left of fascism marxist or communist.

 

Im a huge fan of Debs, but, AT THE TIME, in hindsight, embracing the russian revolution was wrong ONLY IN HOW IT TURNED OUT, but NOT the concept of that REVOLUTION. we are ALL, world wide, STILL fighting WWI, and the russian revolution was born from that.


In the Stalin sense - true,  nope no Communism here. However, in the Marx sense, it is here. Debs pushed it and the Progressive Movement pushes it.

 

I do not consider Debs nor the Progressive movement to be evil - just naive. Like Marx they do (did) not realize the end point - Stalin.

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 31,631
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: Communism

Message 64 of 104 (75 Views)

Olderscout66 wrote:

Aside from the early Christian Community (Acts 2:32-47 et al) and a couple of religion based "coops" (e.g., Amana Colonies) Communism has never existed. What has been called Communism since the early 1900's is Totalitarianism - Stalin and Mao were NOT "Communists", they were tyrants who used the logical appeal of the equality found in Marx writings to murder millions and enslave many more millions.

 

Since the 1920's the American Fascists have used the bogeyman of Communism to stifle any attempt by the people to improve their condition through working together, and they're still at it.

 

There are NO "Communist" governments anywhere in the European Union and yet every one has Universal health care, guaranteed retirements, very limited working hours and excellent affordable education.

 

We can do the same, all we need is fewer neoRepublicans in office and Progressives in their place. The tax structure we had from the 1930's until 1981 would provide a fantastically better life for ALL Americans and NOT diminish the lifestyle of a single high income individual or family. No more losing everything if your child gets sick, no more working longer for lower pay, no more college debt that keeps you from leaving home or buying a car, no more delayed retirements because you can't afford to stop working when you're 65, and most of all NO COMMUNISM ANYWHERE. Just the American Dream to replace the Oligarchy Republicans have been building for the last 30 years.


Had you honestly read post number one you would have seen that Stalin was not the vision of Marx.

 

Your concern about Americans ("fascists" to you) being anti-communist misses the point that it was not anti-basic Marxism, it was anti-USSR. Surely you have heard of the Cold War. Were only "fascists" concerned about the threat of the USSR?

 

Once again - the FDR tax rates did not last until your Reagan taxscam. Why do you have so much trouble understanding that?

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 31,631
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: Communism

Message 65 of 104 (77 Views)

MIseker wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

Richva wrote:

gruffstuff wrote:

My point was that the Constitution does not address our economic system. Period.

 

No question about it, it does not.

 

Though I will say slavery is an example of a free market mentality, and slavery is in the Constitution.

 

I will also say we fought a war to correct that injustice, and amended the Constitution to correct the bad judgement and greed that allowed slavery.

 

Thank the wisdom of the founding fathers for allowing an amendment process, it's almost like they anticipated that conflict and tried to avoid it by freeing slaves on their deaths.

 

Still slavery was always wrong, the drive to reduce the cost of labor was to much,  even for the founding fathers.

 

 


There is no doubt that the founding fathers referred to the existing economic pillars when they wrote the Constitution. How could they not? To your point, the Constitution was changed to address both slavery and women's suffrage.  However, if we want to have the government handle the remittances for our health care or the maintenance of the roads upon which we drive, there is nothing in the Constitution addressing that. 

 

Referring to  "sticking the toe in the water" as if there was some God written set of economic ten commandments is just poor economics.


Not "God written" but "logic written" the more power you grant to the State, the less freedom the people have. Great care is needed particularly when you get into the area of (as one poster thinks) the government owns all the money and decides who gets what.

 

Once again, ceding power to the government is ceding it to those people that no one trusts and are supposedly selling their offices.


if you think the govt and wall st arent controlling the economy you are sadly mistaken. its the biggest wealth redistribution in history to the top.


Back to the basics - what is your view of Communism and/or Marxism?

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 1,645
Registered: ‎02-12-2011

Re: Communism

Message 66 of 104 (85 Views)

Snoopy48 wrote:

umbarch64 wrote:

 

communism.  1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all properly in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.  2.  a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state designated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.  3. the principles and practices of the Communist party.  4.  communalism.

 

 


 


Definitions 1 and 2 describe two separate disctinct forms of government.

 

In definition 1, the people who are in the group work to the benefit of the group as a whole.

 

In definition 2, the people are controlled by an outside tyrant for the benefit of the tyrant.

 

This could be why people have such disagreement about what 'communism' actually is.


Well, look at that, will you?  Very same book.  Very same term.  Very same spelling. How could that be?  Nothing short of amazing.  S'pose it's a misprint?  

 

I thought I just heard you say something like,  "different strokes for different folks"?  Does that mean some folks just don't really tell 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth"?  I'll bet it does. You s'pose they do that on purpose or just don't know any better?  I got an opinion about that....think I'll keep it to myself, though.  Said enough already.  Care to tell us what it is you really think about that?  Bet I know.

 

 

 

 

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 20,638
Registered: ‎11-09-2011

Re: Communism

Message 67 of 104 (95 Views)

For 30 years, 1936 to 1966, America had achieved the American Dream. Despite occasional downticks, the economy boomed, but most important, the Middle Class grew astronomically and EVERY American who was willing and able to work had The Good Life.The biggest Government jobs program ever clawed us out of the Republican orchestrated Great Depression also won WWII.

 

The fuel for this social and economic bonfire was the tax code that made it impossible for the ones dividing the profits to keep it for themselves - if they tried, they'd just send it off to Washington. So the dividers of profits became the Uniters of society, linking wages to worker productivity so every year the rich still got richer, but everybody else got richer faster. To further stoke the boiler, we had Revenue Sharing that distributed billions to States that kept State and local taxes low and services high - plentiful and of excellent quality.

 

Then LBJ tried to buy support for the War he lied us into with huge taxcuts for the rich and death in the jungle for the poor. That long-standing connection between worker productivity and wages began to fray because the profit dividers could now keep a quarter of ever dollar they gave themselves instead of the nickle of the prior 30 years.

 

All during this time, AUTOMATION was helping to drive productivity, but the government financed demand prevented job loss because the War Machine was insatiable. In 1946 we began to add a form of "GLOBALIZATION" called Dixiefication because it moved jobs from the Unionized North to the south with its long tradition of slavery and share croppers, but still the average wages continued to race ahead.

 

Then Reagans Taxscam allowed the profit dividers to keep virtually ALL the profits they gave themselves, so they did and there was nothing left of workers or shareholders, Wages stagnated, investor ROI actually decreased slightly, and every time the Republicans gain power, THEY WANT TO DO IT AGAIN, just in case there's some reminent of the Middle class they havent robbed yet.

 

And people believe GOPers when they say emiminating more taxes on the rich will grow the economy and even admit it wall mean fewer services for everyone, like slashing Medicare and Medicaid and refusing to fix Social Security while turning the InterState into a TOLLROAD and our schools into profit centers.

 

Cannot fathom the madness that drives people to vote for Republicans because they dislike civil rights for black people and LGBT when the result is a lower standard of living for the 99%.

Treasured Social Butterfly
Posts: 12,554
Registered: ‎02-28-2008

Re: Communism

Message 68 of 104 (103 Views)

Snoopy48 wrote:

umbarch64 wrote:

 

communism.  1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all properly in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.  2.  a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state designated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.  3. the principles and practices of the Communist party.  4.  communalism.

 

 


 


Definitions 1 and 2 describe two separate disctinct forms of government.

 

In definition 1, the people who are in the group work to the benefit of the group as a whole.

 

In definition 2, the people are controlled by an outside tyrant for the benefit of the tyrant.

 

This could be why people have such disagreement about what 'communism' actually is.


Or, it could be because conservatives call anything they don't agree with "communism". Most of this is because they have no idea what they mean. 

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 3,579
Registered: ‎12-17-2010

Re: Communism

Message 69 of 104 (110 Views)

umbarch64 wrote:

 

communism.  1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all properly in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.  2.  a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state designated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.  3. the principles and practices of the Communist party.  4.  communalism.

 

 


 


Definitions 1 and 2 describe two separate disctinct forms of government.

 

In definition 1, the people who are in the group work to the benefit of the group as a whole.

 

In definition 2, the people are controlled by an outside tyrant for the benefit of the tyrant.

 

This could be why people have such disagreement about what 'communism' actually is.

Treasured Social Butterfly
Posts: 8,174
Registered: ‎11-18-2009

Re: Communism

Message 70 of 104 (115 Views)

ChasKy53 wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

ChasKy53 wrote:

 


How is it an insult to point out (very accurately) that a poster  "continues to label  any cooperative economic effort as Marxism which wither shows a profound ignorance or a blatant disregard of the facts." ????


1) If you have to ask, you are suffering the maladies described in that post;

2) Do you have no interest in the topic beyond something to fight about?


Any one who continually labels any cooperative economic effort as Marxism or "neo-Marxism" truly does display either ignorance or a blatant disregard for facts. This is simply factual and if someone takes offense, so be it.

 

As far as the topic:  Communism has the same end result as unbridled and unregulated capitalism - - - - - - - - a very small percentage of society ends up with 90% or more of the total wealth and income.

 

What is with your apparent obsession with Marxism and Communism?


A Fascists favorite boogeyman is Communism, or marxism. helping the poor, working together for our common good, any type of govt program to help anyone ( including SS cuz them ol folks arent productive to capitalism) anything that helps a race besides white specifically, cooperative education, equal justice of anykind ( because some dont deserve it ) or having one penny in tax go to anything except the master race, healthcare ( just like ol folks..non productive gotta die) and on and on. see the patterns in the posts..

So it begins.