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Treasured Social Butterfly
Posts: 23,996
Registered: ‎07-11-2013

Re: AND JESUS SAID UNTO PAUL OF RYAN

[ Edited ]
Message 21 of 73 (80 Views)

 


rk9152 wrote:

umbarch64 wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

umbarch64 wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

Mr. Kristof, you make a very good point. Jesus did command us to help our fellow man - and we certainly should.

 

On the other hand, those who follow the teachings of Karl Marx rather than Jesus command us to put in place a government that will seize the property of the productive and redistribute among the others.

 

Slightly different concepts. 


Somebody once claimed that Jesus was the first communist....I think that remark was in regard to the rich man entering Heaven.  You may be on shaky ground if you claim Marx and Jesus are on separate ends of the ethical spectrum on everything.


Not so. Jesus spoke of the responsibilities of the individual. Marx spoke of the power of the State.


I understand the distinction you make..that distinction is not completed.   I do not defend Marx, but when he spoke of the State he spoke of it as a necessay step in the process toward a 'withering away of the state' when it was no longer necessary. 

 

At that point in 'good old Karl's' mind, he seemed to feel that mankind would somehow have achieved an altruistic mind-set so widespread that the state would no longer be needed for man's governance....man would have achieved such a level of 'goodness' you see, you might even call it, let's see....a 'state of grace'.  Hmmmm? 

 

Stay objective about this stuff, please.  It really does help with this 'divisivness' crap.


I believe that the "divisiveness crap" stems from people trying to take the thinking of Marx and attribute them to Jesus. I am quite willing to have a lively discussion with fans of Marx about his thinking, but let's not confuse the issue with the teachings of Jesus.


This discussion thread is about Jesus and Ryan ONLY!!

Bringing in Marx, Lenin and other persons/subject matter is OFF TOPIC.

 

If you are unable or, much more likely, calculatedly do not intend to remain on topic, go start your own original post subject so you can bandy about inaccurate and biased lies, distortions, untruths, and warped and twisted misconceptions about Marxism, Leninism, Communism, Socialism  so common to Repubicans.

 

Ryan is a fraud/liar/hypocrite who has prostituted himself to the unquestionably non-christian fraud that goes by the name of "Repubican Party"  

He's much more a servant of Satan than of God.

 

Come to think of it, deliberately trying to take the discussion off of the original topic of Jesus and Paul Ryan and attempting to divert and distort the discussion with pernicious and inane twaddle about Marx is much more in the service of Satan than it is in the service of God, isn't it?

 

KAKISTOCRACY
Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 4,285
Registered: ‎01-24-2014

Re: AND JESUS SAID UNTO PAUL OF RYAN

Message 22 of 73 (80 Views)

Rk-- so would you like to answer my question and tell me when is the last time you did even one of those things that I asked you about? 

Gee, I miss having a real President!!
Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 27,946
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: AND JESUS SAID UNTO PAUL OF RYAN

Message 23 of 73 (81 Views)

pc6063 wrote:

Cent-so sad some feel all people are looking for is a free handout. I agree there is generational welfare. But, there are also people who just need help along the way. I will never understand the lack if empathy--lack of a heart it seems, in some.

i hope, truly, that should people like this ever need help, it takes a GOOD LONG TIME TO ARRIVE.  


True - it is a shame that we have evolved from a "help you neighbor" society to a "go take the money from those guys and spread it around, just leave me alone" society.

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 27,946
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: AND JESUS SAID UNTO PAUL OF RYAN

Message 24 of 73 (84 Views)

umbarch64 wrote:


[1]  Not in the all encompassing way you infer in a false equivalency, once more.  I do think my post was clear on this point and that you deliberately distorted and dissembled in order to contend.  Do you want to keep talking or not?

Sure.

 

[2]  See...I think 'absolute' freedom is a right and I also think that along with that right comes 'absolute' responsibility that belongs to you or anyone else exercising that right.  Now, IF you chase that rabbit to the end of his burrow, you'll find he and 'the golden rule' are exactly the same color.

 

That 'golden rule' is a shared thing in virtually all major religions.  Sort of an ethic standard, if you want to call it that. 

 

Contend all you want.  Predatory Capitalism is not a component of the 'golden rule'.  Never has been.  Never will be.  Capitalism in a different form from what we got could work and work well.  It just has to adopt a different set of ethics than we see in practice.

We are in agreement as to the golden rule. Where the disagreement arises is whether it is an individual demand or a collective demand.

 

We are also in agreement regarding predatory capitalism. As I have often posted, I believe that the ideal economic model is a free market approach with it's freedom assured by regulation such as anti-trust laws.


 

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 4,285
Registered: ‎01-24-2014

Re: AND JESUS SAID UNTO PAUL OF RYAN

Message 25 of 73 (93 Views)

This conversation reminds me of Animal Farm.  Once the animals overthrew the farmer, Jones, I believe,  Who represented Stalinism,  they created a state of the purest of Marxist beliefs. But  then greed got in the way,and the leaders,  Who claimed that their intelligence was superior to all others,  and; therefore, they were entitled to more while others should have increasingly less became the 1% of today,  as all others suffered at their hands.

 Rulers of 1% in Orwells novel book were pigs. I think that the top pig even looked and acted like trump,  the little one who spun his web of lies could pass  for Spicer,  and all the followers of Napolean--the pig leader-the workhorse who actually worked himself to death and the one little mare who looked away because all she just wanted was to look pretty are represented in present day Trump followers of the blue collar persuasion.  That upper echelon were right there along with pig Naloleon raping the "lesser animals."

 Whoever would've thought that George Orwell could look into the future and see Trump and his fellow greedy idiots?

Gee, I miss having a real President!!
Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 27,946
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: AND JESUS SAID UNTO PAUL OF RYAN

Message 26 of 73 (98 Views)

umbarch64 wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

umbarch64 wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

Mr. Kristof, you make a very good point. Jesus did command us to help our fellow man - and we certainly should.

 

On the other hand, those who follow the teachings of Karl Marx rather than Jesus command us to put in place a government that will seize the property of the productive and redistribute among the others.

 

Slightly different concepts. 


Somebody once claimed that Jesus was the first communist....I think that remark was in regard to the rich man entering Heaven.  You may be on shaky ground if you claim Marx and Jesus are on separate ends of the ethical spectrum on everything.


Not so. Jesus spoke of the responsibilities of the individual. Marx spoke of the power of the State.


I understand the distinction you make..that distinction is not completed.   I do not defend Marx, but when he spoke of the State he spoke of it as a necessay step in the process toward a 'withering away of the state' when it was no longer necessary. 

 

At that point in 'good old Karl's' mind, he seemed to feel that mankind would somehow have achieved an altruistic mind-set so widespread that the state would no longer be needed for man's governance....man would have achieved such a level of 'goodness' you see, you might even call it, let's see....a 'state of grace'.  Hmmmm? 

 

Stay objective about this stuff, please.  It really does help with this 'divisivness' crap.


I believe that the "divisiveness crap" stems from people trying to take the thinking of Marx and attribute them to Jesus. I am quite willing to have a lively discussion with fans of Marx about his thinking, but let's not confuse the issue with the teachings of Jesus.

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 27,946
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: AND JESUS SAID UNTO PAUL OF RYAN

Message 27 of 73 (97 Views)

myexper wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

myexper wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

myexper wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

Mr. Kristof, you make a very good point. Jesus did command us to help our fellow man - and we certainly should.

Yet your posts clearly suggest otherwise.

 

On the other hand, those who follow the teachings of Karl Marx rather than Jesus command us to put in place a government that will seize the property of the productive and redistribute among the others.

Nobody is following the teachings of Karl Marx here as you fallaciously claim.

But what your Republicans are looking to do is "seize" what little the poor and middle class have left and give it to the most wealthy ..... more and more welfare for the already wealthy at the expense of ALL other Americans!

 

 

Slightly different concepts. 

And a gross false equivalency!


 One said that people have an obligation to help their fellow man. The other said that the government should control such actions. I'll leave it up to you as to whose philosophy you are following.


There is a limit on what one individual person can do to help all people as no one person has unlimited resources. And that is where government needs to step in .... to do for its citizens what they are unable to do by themselves.


It is interesting that individuals do not have the resources to do what is needed but the government does. I guess the bureaucrats in DC go down to Tidal Basin an pluck those dollars right of the money trees.


The government does have the resources .... and is responsible to do for its citizens what they cannot do for themselves.

 

Instead of your sarcastic "guess" .... how about: 

- Stop spending money on an already bloated military budget .... highest of all nations on earth and higher than the next 10 nations combined.

 

- Stop Republican budgets which annihilate safety nets for the poor, taxes the middle class to death and grants the already wealthy millions in tax cuts ...... I.E. Reverse Robin Hood .... Rob from all other Americans to give more money to the most wealthy.

 

- Stop corporate welfare (tax loopholes).


Try to focus. The subject is the teachings of Jesus, not Marx. And BTW, the government does not "have it". The government must "take it" from some.

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 27,946
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: AND JESUS SAID UNTO PAUL OF RYAN

Message 28 of 73 (90 Views)

pc6063 wrote:

Rk9152- here's  your problem with individuals helping individuals-- they don't do it!

people get so caught up on in their own life they often don't even contact their friends for long periods of time!

when is the last time you 1.bought groceries for a needy family

2.took them and paid for their medical or dental care or vision care

3. offered them a ride on a ongoing basis because they had no car

4. bought clothes for their children or the  adults

 it doesn't happen! the majority of people are too busy. it is a very good idea in theory, it is a wonderful idea in theory, but Theory and reality are not the same.


The subject is the teachings of Jesus, not your negative opinion of your fellow man.

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 27,946
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: AND JESUS SAID UNTO PAUL OF RYAN

Message 29 of 73 (91 Views)

myexper wrote:

rk9152 wrote:

My error. I thought I had seen a constant attack on the 1%ers here. I wonder where I got that idea. 

Perhaps from listening to RW extremist media.

Do you really consider posts here to be "RW extremist media". Those attacks are common here.

 

That one comment indicates an interest in fighting, not discussing.

Actually, your comment "on the 1%ers here" followed by an invitation to attack that comment  "indicated an interest in fighting".

Is it your point that the 1%ers are not a constant target here?

 


 


 

Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 27,946
Registered: ‎02-21-2014

Re: AND JESUS SAID UNTO PAUL OF RYAN

Message 30 of 73 (89 Views)

alferdpacker wrote:

Paul Ryan is not now and has not been the kind of practicing Christian whose life, actions, and speech is guided by the words of Jesus - rather his life is guided by the words, desires and unreported "influence" of dishonest Repubican/Conservative politicians - for the last fifteen years - ever since he prostituted himself to the Repubican Party.


Back to the basics - do you suppose the teachings of Jesus instructed us to help our fellow man individually or to elect politicians to practice Marxism?